Same as been for years.Not enough is bad,extreme gaps bad.Just use what your ring and piston company reccomend. NO need to make it difficult and if you cut one a little big its gona work.

 

Pic is the same because JE uses Total Seal rings, just like a few other piston companies do. It's been found that a larger second gap is worth some power due to improved top ring seal. I don't do anything now without a larger second gap...

 

Pic is the same because JE uses Total Seal rings, just like a few other piston companies do.

Actually, the two charts are.different in the pic. JE recommending wider than the total seal for the second ring gap.

 

Wider second gap as mentioned is what you want.

 

It's not like you are going to find some big gain that made you wonder why you didnt do that years ago.Last time we tried it on dyno saw 3 hp average.And I would bet it was more to do with engine just getting broke in and sealing up.Smoke and mirrors

 

What's smoke and mirrors about it? It's proven to make hp. It's proven to increase top ring seal. If it didn't work, top engine builders wouldn't be doing it....EVERY pro stock engine built does it, every pro mod does it....the majority of engine builders do it....if it wasn't worth the effort, they wouldn't....because you found very few gains on the dyno with whatever you tested doesn't mean it doesn't work.....is it going to give substantial extra hp? Likely not...but.....especially with power adder engines, there are gains to be made which is why it's done....

 

LOL

 

Well shit. I should just get pregapped rings and fuhgetaboutit

 

Yeah, nothing to this engine builder shit.

 

That’s probably why a 2 ring piston that I’ve ran against 3 ring pistons showed no power loss. The only compression ring doesn’t unload. Who knows? Not me.

 

Any compression that gets past the top ring is lost HP and you need to get rid of it. A wide gap 2nd ring accomplishes this. If you have a tighter ring gap you run the risk of traping the gases between the 1st and 2nd ring lifting the top ring and causing ring flutter and loss of seal. The job of the 2nd ring is an oil scrapper and nothing more. I ran .040 2nd ring gap on a 4.600 bore 565 with alky injection. With gas ported pistons I was able to pull 20 inches of vacuum

 

I pulled 19.67” of vac with a 2 ring wet sump deal.

 

And that's why most pistons have a accumulator groove between the two ring lands.

 

I've pulled 24"+ with a second ring gap .002 tighter than the top..........

 

I don’t doubt it.

 

For what it's worth,
Sorry article didn't copy&paste

 

On a 4.125 bore the ring has point contact with the bore for 12.95 inches. @ 4.500 is 14.13

You think opening up a gap by .010 or .020 is going to relieve blowby pressure? Spend more time getting the top to seal

 

What if it's not about blow by?

 

😶
Ok. No answers here. Nascar guy seems to imply tighter second gap...either that or he's bragging he's achieved incredible levels of vacuum in spite of...tighter second gap. Some guys on here that seem to have experience at a professional level prefer looser second gap. Hard to filter out the noise.

I know from my own very limited experience there's power in rings. Low tension, narrow width, backspacing, napier cut, gaps, and on and on. I also have had well running engines with shitty leakdown but had excellent dynamic compression and ran really well, but that was a very expensive set of rings too.

 

😶
Ok. No answers here. Nascar guy seems to imply tighter second gap...either that or he's bragging he's achieved incredible levels of vacuum in spite of...tighter second gap. Some guys on here that seem to have experience at a professional level prefer looser second gap. Hard to filter out the noise.

I know from my own very limited experience there's power in rings. Low tension, narrow width, backspacing, napier cut, gaps, and on and on. I also have had well running engines with shitty leakdown but had excellent dynamic compression and ran really well, but that was a very expensive set of rings too.

lol.
Warp has nothing to prove or brag about here. his reputation and work are top shelf.
absolutely there is power in rings. when we are talking about a few thou in end gap, we are picking the fly shit out of the pepper. We all have our pet theories, and why we do what we do. I am comfortable with my method, as im sure warp is happy with and comfortable with his way.
I wouldnt expect in a typical bracket style motor you would see much with gap. Thickness, radial tension, etc yes sir. IMO, gap is farther down the food chain, unless they are butting, or .100....lol. Our heavy nitrous shit we run a lot, and they still make power na and dont suffer from excessive blowby

 

Would you guys use a different ring gap when using a vacuum pump compared to when not using one

 

😂....Well,...I just gap them the same🤗

 

Oh great...now 3 choices

 

The top will expand more than the second ring, so the second will still have a larger gap when "hot".

 

Tighter 2nd ring gap might help pull more vacuum if it's blocking some of the blow by but if it is, it's also limiting the amount of vac the top ring sees. Then it's just a gauge number and a crank case/atmosphere thing, not a ring thing and maybe that's OK if you have all the ring seal you need?
OEM's discovered the benefit of bigger 2nd ring gaps long time ago but maybe we've moved past that?
Talking about gaps... big 2nd ring gap is only part of the path that needs to be completed.

 

I think a guy who might dingle berry hone his block on a rebuild might have a little more combustion blow by the top ring than a guy who has the latest nascar block machined by new machines by people who's job is just that and using the best methods for the rings and block material they are using. You just can't compare the two.

And most people are somewhere in between the two.

 

lol
i ocassionally digleballed the pro stock shit just to try it.
we went a 6.44 testing in 2014 with a dingleballed engine... I was afraid to make it angry with the real hone for awhile....lol

 

LOL, I see the TF guys do it all the time too and they run 330+, lol.

 

Several class racers ball hone after a few runs, and pick up power. The ones I talked too, used 400 grit. I tried it a couple times, and for sure, I never slowed down.

 

I feel pretty stupid after reading this. I had my own little theory about consistency and temperature with my aluminium block. I've been running TS gapless second rings for awhile now. I may have to rethink my assumptions now. Now my question is. Am I at a greater risk of lifting a ring land because of my second ring? Input is appreciated.

 

Years ago, I tried a gapless 2nd ring. All I know is no one I know runs them now.

 

Ive told this story before but back in 2017 I went to the WCF race at MIR. On our 2nd test pass Wednesday afternoon we blew the top ring land off #6 at about 1000ft and broke the top ring into 3 pieces. Went 8.09 on that pass. Had already paid for the whole weekend and had nothing else to do, so I took it apart, and had my now fiance grab some old used rings I had in a box and bring them down. Deburred the top of the piston with a 4 inch flap wheel, took the old used top ring I had and put it in the 2nd ring groove, hit the bore with some scotchbrite, and put it back together. These pics are taken about 4am Friday morning when we put it back together.

First pass back out pan vac was down about 5 inches and we went I think 8.18. Next pass was 8.14 and down 3.5 inches. 3rd pass was 8.08 (fastest pass it had made to date) and only down 2 inches at that point. It made 4 more passes on Sunday, all between 8.12-8.14.

Obviously not the most powerful or fastest setup, but shows what can work at some level. Ive since paid less attention to ring gaps, and more attention to the ring design, stack design, cylinder wall finish, and continue to make more power.

 

Next you guys are going to tell me that you take the ridge out with a ridge reamer before you use your dingle berry hone, and is that with or without a torque plate, lol.

 

i leave the plate on to not scratch the deck........lol
seriously. I dont like how the deck looks after the balls scuff it....lol

 

I seen a picture of dyno don doing a valve job at the track with his Boss head sitting on top of a trash can, just patch it up and run it until you can't.

 

I know its a loaded question but what grit dinggle ball hone is recommended for say a blown alky BBC with a .043/.043 ring pack? I used a 800 grit hone once when I had to replace the rings on a couple of pistons last year And wondering if its too fine. Rings seated just fine but maybe a 400 would of been a better choice

 

Total seal told me a 280 grit for their stuff. I've got one and it works fine. It's not so much the grit but the pressure on the cylinder walls. They don't put much pressure on them, and if you oil it and keep it moving it does a nice job...