This will be the next stage for drag racing. The air is free and a wider tolerance for mistakes over nitrous.

 

The air might be "free" but a big enough compressor to fill the tank is expensive....or you'd have to pay someone to fill it every single pass just like a nitrous car. There's no "free lunch" as my mom always said.

A 3300psi tank with enough volume to support any real HP in a race car sounds like a GREAT idea! It would be a HUGE, HEAVY, DANGEROUS tank. LMAO.

I just don't see how any of that is practical....

 

The air might be "free" but a big enough compressor to fill the tank is expensive....or you'd have to pay someone to fill it every single pass just like a nitrous car. There's no "free lunch" as my mom always said.

A 3300psi tank with enough volume to support any real HP in a race car sounds like a GREAT idea! It would be a HUGE, HEAVY, DANGEROUS tank. LMAO.

I just don't see how any of that is practical....

If my memory serves me, I "faintly" remember either
Don Garlits or Mickey Thompson tried this on/in a front motor dragster in the 60's?

The air tank was loooong, like 5 or 6 feet.
It looked like a regular compressed gas cylinder, but too long.

Who ever did it had the same problem....refill AND the tank was
HEAVY!

Needless to say, the development stopped.

I did see a picture a long time ago, but, alas, I can't remember where, or who it was.........

Your (forgetful ) Pal, Gary

 

Here is the article. Bottles are similar to SCBA tanks, and hold 3300psi. They do make carbon fiber SCBA tanks that are good to 4500psi that would hold more air, but they weren't used here. The cylinders could be filled anywhere that refills SCBA. Most local fire departments are set up to refill cylinders if you know somebody.

 

I thought Gene Snow tried it also? I could be wrong.

 

Air tank would be no more dangerous than nitrous tanks. You could have the compressor in your pit. Nothing is free but instead of taking a 100 hp to drive a blower for 5 secs you could fill the tank with 1hp for 500 seconds or how longer ever it takes.

If you do the calcs, a 5 sec car doesnt use a ridiculous amount of volume, PV=PV.

With computers controlling the air flow I think this technology will be to Turbos what Turbos where to nitrous in the last decade.

 

Last I knew nitrous bottles were in the 1000psi area not 3300psi. A NOS sized bottle even at 3300psi probably only holds a few cubic feet of air volume. I haven't done the math but I think the volume needed to supply anything with decent hp would be way more than a few cubic feet. Just seems way overcomplicated for the limited applications. Neat idea, not practical in my mind.

 

Procharger rates the F3-136 at 4000cfm. So if we assume that as a static number the motor will use for 6 seconds we would need 400 cubic feet of air right?

 

NHRA didn't let it happen back then and I don't see them going down this road now. Still a big red flag on safety issues.

Blessings.......Ron

 

That price is out in left field. $6000?

 

Not seeing it. Big money, gotta carry a pile of bottles and your paying for air of medical quality to use in an engine.

A full nitrous bottle gets a few runs for a street car size shot. This system needs a new bottle for every shot, and thats so impractical because you need a trailer just to haul all the cylinders around.

 

Intriguing.

 

It's one thing to try in a lab...Completely different in the real world

 

With the ever increasing technology, I look forward to see if the people doing this are in whole hogg and willing to run this thing to the end to make a safe product that is affordable and practical for the end user (us).

Easy to sit on the sidelines and complain, let's let the folks try to push this envelope. Sidenote, movie avatar wasn't made years ago because the technology didn't exist to make it happen, so he waited and then ended up with a blockbuster. Hopefully this compressed air deal is the same situation.

 

I thought about this and looked into the physics of the whole enchilada back when I was racing outlaw 10.5.

The compressed air idea is full of problems the main one being the size/weight and problems of refilling of the tanks. Sure you can bring 30 precharged oversized tanks ( I was looking for a system capable of supporting 3000hp) to allow you to make 10 passes but these are very heavy and you will have to pay to have them charged commercially ( No FD is gonna charge up 30 tanks even with a big ass compressor that's a time consuming expensive proposition and forget about pit charging whens the last time you saw a 220v 40amp circuit or generator at the track).

Then of course you have the sanctioning bodies/safety issues...Nitrous oxide is stored as a liquid to exit a damaged cylinder it needs to liquefy...this reduced the thrust potential on a broken neck cylinder greatly, however compressed air is stored as a gas, since it does not need to phase change, It WILL exit VERY rapidly.

NHRA did not allow it back in the day and if you think they will allow a couple hundred pounds of tanks of gas compressed to 3500psi capable of shooting through a building if the neck is broken in a crash you had better think twice.

 

On a street car that didn't need a lot of boost is there any reason why an extra H/D battery and an extra alternator keep an electric pump constantly filling a cylinder for boost as and when it's needed with a gauge letting the driver know when it's available?

 

Domyounhave any idea what kind of pump, heat exchanger, and power is required to fill a tank with air to 3,300? Scuba cylinders have to be dunked in water as they fill, and thats with roo, temp air froma cascade rack. Super heated air from a compressor cannot be used without cooling first. The pump draws massive electricity to operate and is a rather large unit.


We already have compressors that work, draw far less and make a consistant level of boost. Using 3,300 psi to be turned into 25 psi of boost for a few seconds is fucking retarded. Its leaf blower supercharger retarded.

 

No, that's why there is a question mark (?) at the end of the post.

Street car = 4-6lb boost in most applications. Just a thought. Then again if it could be done I guess it would already be on the shelf.

 

Do you have any Idea who these guys are? Dale Vaznaian was my partner and 1/2 owner when we started NOS back in 1978. Karl Staggemeir Was a very competent Engineer, that ran the wind tunnel for GM back in Detroit. He came to work for NOS and was very involved with the developed of NOS products as well as running the Research/Development Dept. When NOS was sold in 1999 to Holley we all went in different directions. I started a small nitrous company and Dale and Karl started developing a compressed air supercharger in which you see here. These are the first runs right out of the box. This has so much potential. In the true spirit of "Hod Rodding" This is truly some "out of the box" thinking and keeps the true spirit of advancing the performance Industry Alive! Hope to see a lot more of this kind product. These are two very creditable people that are making this happen. Hope this gives you a little more insight. Mike Thermos at Nitrous Supply

 

Must be alot of technology to take 15 years to just have first runs! Will be interesting to see if this has benefits of NOS. NOS is so proven and effective I think it will be a challenge.

 

Mike Thermos is absolutely correct. I wrote the story and I think this is excellent application of intelligent engineering. First of all, I went to a local Scuba shop and they will refill a tank for $10 - they have banks of tanks already filled so it takes about 3 minutes in and out. For all those doubters, you can buy a gas-powered compressor to fill your own tank. Don't know how long that takes but it can't be too long. The portable compressor costs $1,500 but - how much does an F-3 supercharger cost?
What the naysayers have not noticed - we're talking about 10 to 20 psi inlet air temp at 0 degrees F. The test engine was completely happy at 10 psi and the plugs looked like they had made an NA run. Lean A/F ratios? As mentioned, no problem - it didn't make the power obviously but neither did it kill the plugs or anything else. I also read someone posted "medical grade air" - what they hell is that? You just squeezing atmosphere - you're not breathing this - the engine is!
I am impressed mostly with the engineering that went into this system. Think about having to reduce 3,300 psi down to 10 or 20 psi but still maintain the tremendous cfm that is required. You're not going to do that with a simple fuel pressure regulator.
Yes - 3,300 is a bunch more pressure than 1,000 in a nitrous bottle. If you handle the bottles with care, there's no problem. The system is far easier on engines - which no one so far has commented on. Think about the difference in inlet air temperature of 10 psi at 0 degrees F from CAS and 150 degrees inlet air temp from an 8-71 at the same boost pressure. Which one would you want to shove into your engine?

 

Mike Thermos is absolutely correct. I wrote the story and I think this is excellent application of intelligent engineering. First of all, I went to a local Scuba shop and they will refill a tank for $10 - they have banks of tanks already filled so it takes about 3 minutes in and out. For all those doubters, you can buy a gas-powered compressor to fill your own tank. Don't know how long that takes but it can't be too long. The portable compressor costs $1,500 but - how much does an F-3 supercharger cost?
What the naysayers have not noticed - we're talking about 10 to 20 psi inlet air temp at 0 degrees F. The test engine was completely happy at 10 psi and the plugs looked like they had made an NA run. Lean A/F ratios? As mentioned, no problem - it didn't make the power obviously but neither did it kill the plugs or anything else. I also read someone posted "medical grade air" - what they hell is that? You just squeezing atmosphere - you're not breathing this - the engine is!
I am impressed mostly with the engineering that went into this system. Think about having to reduce 3,300 psi down to 10 or 20 psi but still maintain the tremendous cfm that is required. You're not going to do that with a simple fuel pressure regulator.
Yes - 3,300 is a bunch more pressure than 1,000 in a nitrous bottle. If you handle the bottles with care, there's no problem. The system is far easier on engines - which no one so far has commented on. Think about the difference in inlet air temperature of 10 psi at 0 degrees F from CAS and 150 degrees inlet air temp from an 8-71 at the same boost pressure. Which one would you want to shove into your engine?

To answer several point you have brought up.

Yes you can exchange a charged cylinder for 10 dollars. So if you plan to make 10 runs that's 100 dollars and you will need to purchase or rent the 10 cylinders that you want to have refilled...and of course you have to transport them to and from the scuba shop to the track.

Yes you can buy a gas powered compressor, from what I have read a decent compressor is more like 3 grand and will take a half hour in ideal conditions to charge a bottle. So that is an option for the guy who is looking for a kit to run with a single bottle.

I do think its a really neat idea, no parasitic drag, low charge air temps, etc. is why I looked into it about 10 years ago as an option for outlaw 10.5 racing, however for that app it was not doable even if the sanctioning bodies and everyone else allowed it.

For the weekend warrior running an 800 to 1000 hp engine it may be doable but until you can drop the price significantly I just don't see much market for a 6g system needing a 3 grand compressor....but that's just my opinion I have been wrong before.

 

I was thinking about this a few years ago.
If you could run the compressed air & a blower, w/ the right electronics & air regulator you could have a Flat Boost curve w/ 40#'s of boost!
no boost lost on the gear shift would be huge!

 

IT'S INTERESTING THAT THE MOTOR WAS HAPPY THROUGHOUT TESTING......I THINK THAT SAYS A LOT IN ITSELF

 

I think a turbo with an A/W intercooler would show very similar results. I think it is a cool idea and I enjoy seeing innovative things like this but I just see it having two things going against it. Its going to cost as much as a turbo or supercharger kit and still need to have a bottle filled like a nitrous system. That is a pretty bad combo in my opinion.

 

Fill it up with water for steam propulsion .

 

Interesting idea, and cheaper than using nitrous if you have a compressor that can refill the bottles.

Nice to see some innovative ideas getting some press.

 

Just a little note, Scuba tanks much like these are, are much more popular and used all over the world everyday. There are dive shops all over the world refilling is easy and very common and reasonable in price too. Mike Thermos