I wouldn't run the IC personally. I don't know anyone that has/is running methanol with an IC. Simply not worth the effort and very hard to find any data on the setup. As far as AFR/Lambda it depends a lot on what ignition you are running. Anything other than a Pro Mag 44 will be somewhat ignition limited and much more critical of tune-up. The low IC temps will more than likely magnify the problem. Give some more details on ignition, piston design, standard/softened chambers etc. I know some of the TAD/TAFC guys have experimented with super cooling methanol with some positive results but not changing air temp at all. Obviously different than your senerio but we are talking about a fuel that doesn't need any help to run well.

 

it works fine, it opens the tuning window a little bit, i would still aim for the same mixtures as non intercooled,

 

This. Definitely do not ditch the intercooler. Most people don't run them on methanol setups because of class rules and then it turns into monkey see monkey do in the drag race world. And it's worth some power on high pressure setups.

 

I am running 0.68 lambda intercooled on methanol, 34psi boost ,only 1/4 mile though

Is that 80f air inlet temp outside temp or in intake manifold?

cheers Richie

 

This would be after intercooler. Airtemps at Bonneville are usually about 100°f at Speedweek (second week in August)

 

You need a bigger intercooler and/or more water capacity(flow and reservoir). Providing you can fit it. Should be able to maintain 60-70deg throughout the run during the heat.

Would also consider a change to GT55's. Same package space, far more efficient and will do more work with less boost pressure

 

Yes, It seems you can't have too much intercooler. I'm currently running Garrett GT4718s. I thought the GT55s were a bigger frame?
I don't have my laptop in front of me but I think my simulation software says that I'm running about 69% compressor efficiency at 30 psi and 7500rpm. I think we could do a bit better with GT55s but if I can get all I can out of this package, it will get the job done. I just need to concentrate on what I can get out of it safely to make it live. If I can make 2400hp live consistently, we can get the record of fastest piston powered car. Should be a piece of cake but anybody that has run at Bonneville knows differently.

 

Methanol needs heat to atomize and burn correctly.
It cools to 100* in the intake port when fuel curve is correct.

You'll be better served researching an ignition.

 

Except my fuel doesn't get injected until it's well into the port and my ports are small compared to Hemi or Big Chief style heads.
I think I want to get that air shrunk down and tightened up before it even has to enter the port.

 

. What ign and 02 sensors are you running ? and yes do not run that bitch at .068 for 5 miles lol

 

I guess I may have missed it a little on the IC but what I was getting at was to run it at something that would live, like 3.3A/F but it will take a Pro Mag 44 to do it reliably and have a decent tuning window IMHO. If he was trying to run at 50psi or above I would have answered differently on the IC.

P.S. Not trying to piss off you coil pack guys, LOL

 

After watching Carl Stevens and mick synder change over to coil packs I wouldn't put a mag on a lawnmower

 

Running a Mag nowadays is like running mechanical injection still.

 

Oooosheeet shots fired Pimp daddy taking cover lol

 

We will be using Holley Smart Coils. Gapping plugs somewhere between .012 - .015. Also, we will be using Holley Dominator to control boost (Holley solenoids) and our active aero dynamics.
So far, I really like everything I've seen with the Holley stuff such as how the software is so configurable and "completeness" of a total engine management system.

We don't get a lot of chances to test for Bonneville. We don't always make decisions on which parts and components are best. We are always looking for which parts are good enough to get the job done and will least likely to give us any problems.

 

I'd just be careful with anything 5 miles full tilt lol. The intercooler can't hurt in something with that kind of duration .

4-7 seconds vs what the OP is talking about is very different realms

 

What is the point of diminishing returns? It seems some point there would not be enough heat to properly burn methanol. Maybe a good question for someone at VP?

 

It's much easier to light if it is not too rich. This is part of the value in running the intercooler.

 

In talking with the probably the world's leading authority on the subject, he is recommending .65-.68 Lambda which according to my calcs comes out to be 4.2 - 4.5:1 afr with a stoich of 6.45 with Methanol and I should be looking at keeping egt's under 1300°f. These numbers jive perfectly with what I'm seeing on Engine Analyzer Pro 3.9.
Thanks everybody for the input!

 

Wow, really. So basically on a car equipped with a gasoline A/F gauge you guys on methanol are tuning the car to read 10.0 Flat on the gasoline A/F meter when under heavy load?

 

Seems lean to me as well but I'm no tuner. Have seen some major melt downs with .60-.65 in 1/8 mile cars. We always shot for .45-.50 in big boost stuff.

 

Keep in mind we are not making 50+ psi of boost, we will only be making about 30psi and that will not be until third gear.
This dramatically effects how rich we will have to run it. Most power to be made on normally aspirated meth engines happens at about 5.0:1
The intercooler does make huge difference in how lean it can be run.
I know that it sounds lean but but I will not start there. I will start out at 4.0:1 and keep an eye on egt's. Ultimately egt's will probably be the determining factor in how far we can lean on it.
BTW, what are guys running 50+ psi boost seeing as far as air inlet temps that are not running running an intercooler or preinjecting any meth upstream?

 

Obviously, we will start off very, very conservative and lean on it from there. We can run some extra boost in second gear and run it very rich as to get our best head start on thermal management heading into high gear.

 

Sounds like someone needs the Kam efi won't need to worry about blowing that bitch up

 

What do you guys think of spraying a 50/50 water /meth mix.. Straight into his turbo..

That would increase the turbo efficiency.. Cool the air intake temp.. And cool the in cylinder combustion process..

Just what you need for running a long distance at WOT..

 

Nitromethane

 

I run those AFR's at 30-35psi. I don't really look at inlet air temp, I can't change it and it is not representative of what is actually happening post injector in the runner or chamber. I have some friends that run pretty big boost on compound tractor pulling engines on methanol and they are very leery of spraying meth pre-comoressor or inter-stage as they have had/seen big time explosions from turning the turbo system into a big pipe bomb when something goes wrong like dropping a valve etc. They run water injection only with very good results. They run anywhere from 85-125psi boost pressure. If you look at the psychometric and/or enthalpy diagram water has huge BTU potential if you can utilize the latent heat transfer when change of state occurs. This is also a key factor in how methanol works so well non-intercooled. What you are dealing with on inlet air heat load is not all that much heat since it is sensible heat. Knowing and understanding the difference between latent heat/sensible heat and their relationship is key to having a great working system.

 

If you look at the psychometric and/or enthalpy diagram water has huge BTU potential if you can utilize the latent heat transfer when change of state occurs.

I'm not sure what these psychometric and enthalpy terms are about... Do you mind elaborating, or do you have a handy source of reading?

The latent heat absorption for water generally occurs in the combustion chamber, right?

This is also a key factor in how methanol works so well non-intercooled. What you are dealing with on inlet air heat load is not all that much heat since it is sensible heat. Knowing and understanding the difference between latent heat/sensible heat and their relationship is key to having a great working system.

What is sensible heat? Is it like temp gained through compression? Like methanol evaporates well in temps of compressed inlet air, but water needs higher temps to evaporate well in an instantaneous manner, as in a combustion chamber?

 

I can vouch for the pipe bomb potential! But I still thoroughly enjoyed my upstream injection experiment.

 

The reason I suggested a 50/50 water/meth mix being injected before the compressor is because it is considered non-flammable.. And because the meth in that mix has a lower evaporation point than the water.. It's better for cooling the intake air charge temperature.. Where as the remaining water is best at cooling the combustion process.. At least that's the way I understand it..

I recommend this stuff.. It's already pre-mixed 51% water and 49% methanol..

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/...-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-snow-performance&gclid=CPHF-LW2wtECFYi2wAodXm4PLw

 

If I would do any upstream injection, I will do it post compressor. Raw liquid is not such a nice thing to do to compressor wheel.
I was also considering NOS post turbos to take the some heat away to make it easier for the ijntercooler to do it's job. Just a small dry kit injecting maybe 2000lbs/hr? . LOL Everything is legal in "blown Fuel" class just not everything is smart.

 

There are no issues spraying precompressor if you don't do it like a jackass. I put 8-10k ccs through my turbos. The backfire risk is real though.

 

Thank you Kevin! I'll do some googling on this today, but somehow I think you probably just gave me some of the most useful information I will find.

 

I agree! Thank you Kevin!

Something else occurred to me.
I will have the perfect tool to see what kind of difference the intercooler makes.
I will just have to richen to about 3.5-3.7:1 and shut off the intercooler waterpumps and rerun it on the chassis dyno. It should be interesting.

 

In very simple terms, sensible heat is what you see on a thermometer. Say you have a pound of ice, you raise the temperature from 31*F to 32*F that is sensible heat and also happens to take 1 BTU to make that change. Now you take the same pound of ice and raise it from 32*F ice to 33*F water that took ~900 BTU to melt and all of it has to be melted to get it to 33*F, this is latent heat. All your work is done on change of state. A BTU is the amount of heat it takes to raise one pound of water one *F. So melting one pound of ice is equivalent to changing 100lbs of water ~ 9*F. To figure it what other liquids properties are you need their Specific Heat value which is based off of water having a Specific Heat=1. Pressure/Enthalpy diagrams show these values and relationships at different temperatures and pressures. Hope this helps.