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Another what's the limit? LS 5.3

24K views 57 replies 17 participants last post by  Third Gen Racer  

Ls3 Fox is the real deal.



That's kinda what I was thinking. No way I can build a 700 hp engine for less money too.
FWIW the CCW cranks from china are badass, and hold a lot more than people know about. Pick the flavor of the day rods, and whatever pistons you can find a deal on... about a low 2k rotating assembly that will take anything you can throw at it.

For stock crank, all I know is that yes flex, and also I would cut in extra grooves and setup your thrust properly. If the converter balloons you could have problems without enough oil flow and clearance to the thrust face.
 
The pan vac only changes 2-3 kpa when it hit the boost safety. I couldn't fine an example of the boost safety triggered but the is a 5.20 run. Pan vac stays pretty steady.
I don't believe the MPH. The back half is high 133 MPH compared to other runs with the same back half. And my wheel speed confirms the high 133.
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do an oil analysis. "low" pressure is fine if everything is happy. if you want you can get a higher flowing pump or thicker oil.


On second thought, it's probably making more power on the faster run, and also heating up the block, causing it to grow. The half filled block will definitely tax your oil temps a lot more, especially on the big end. Which can cause a drop in pressure. I'm not sure if I missed something though, there kind of are a few convos in this thread going at once.

Do you have a cooler for the oil? what weight? what did you set your assembly clearance to? i didn't see if you had an l33 or what, but I assume alu block too...
 
with a half filled block I'd run the rods with the normal thou per inch, but on the mains i'd expect you to need to go something real tight... then run like a 0-5w20 in it. So I think you need to either sort your oil cooling (improve it's efficiency) or increase your pump volume, or even both.

Once you do that I think you'll be able to easily go until the heads lift. Just keep torque under control to keep the caps from taking a walk (shouldn't be a problem with this displacement). Also I would recommend an ATI damper if you don't have one. Their testing showed a pretty decent reduction in crank snout flex. I personally think a good damper for high rpm is a must for any engine you want to live. That's my 2c, might not be worth anything, but at least food for thought.

Especially on a stock crank... could also be possible that at some resonance (rpm) the crank is wobbling a bit, and pushing oil out of the mains, which is fine, but then causes lower pressure as it's essentially leaking the wedge. But, again start with an oil analysis. they're cheap. and you can tell if the bearings are taking a beating. Catch something like that early enough and it's a weekend project to drop some new bearings and a pump in.

Or even a new crank. I would trust a 1 grand ccw cheap crank to well above what the heads will stay clamped on stock diameter 4 bolt. There's even a guy who ran the piss out of his 388" (Far north racing on youtube) k1 non ccw crank to like 9k rpm in the traps (those are what $700, but worth to just get the ccw as they're way stronger).

Just figure out why you're dropping oil pressure to make sure it isn't something bad. Then you have options on the table, and can even just swap stuff over to another block. I'm curious if it's just oil temp growing the block.
 
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I would not recommend running tighter main clearance on high hp engines period and certainly not on one with a stock crank flopping around in it. They can and will touch down. I would personally run more clearance and a standard weight non-synthetic oil especially anyone running methanol. The Lucas Plus line of racing oils is an excellent choice. They do make it in a 20w-50 and I personally use the straight 50wt Plus oil. I also run pan/oil tank heaters prior to running the engine too. The "plus" is a very high zinc additive package that was developed when Lucas was the title sponsor for NHRA TAFC/TAD. I'm not saying just dump it in and its a cure all. The engine needs to be planned out before building with things like what fuel, what weight oil etc determined and alloances made for them. It can obviously be done other ways but IMHO this is the correct way to go.

I think you're right. Especially for a track only setup. My idea was that with how much heat a half filled block will create if hot lapping, with too much clearance on an alu motor, you're just going to have no oil pressure if you start with like 30 thou on the mains. That has to grow over 45 thou after a few runs... I personally think something like 17 thou is really tight, and wouldn't go more than that for a turbo car probably ever... I know how I have mine set up and it's pretty standard, which is IMHO tight compared to non LS engines, or even iron block ls's.

I have been back and fourth about what oil to run. I think you're also right about oil, but maybe with the wrong reasons behind the thinking.

Data shows zinc lowers oil film strength. But that's actually a good thing, hear me out here.

Data shows that a thicker oil, distributes the load across a greater surface of the bearing radius. A thicker softer, zinc oil, will basically become a wider cushion to absorb the load. Rather than the bearings.

A stronger oil film will distribute that load to the bearing more directly. Like jumping onto a memory foam mattress vs jumping onto carpet.

And this makes sense from what we know about oil weight. Higher weight, we get more heat, more shearing, and more friction inside the oil its self. Which again, makes sense if we approach it understanding that higher weight oil will distribute the load further across the bearing radius.

Now with that in mind the bearings are important to also consider. Depending on the setup, like oem bearings are real soft, they just suck up anything you pound them or slide through there. Then use a thin film to reduce friction, there by reducing heat or energy loss. To improve emissions and mileage (that whole thing is a crock of shit btw, cars really aren't our worst source of emissions).

And we know race bearings are usually really "hard." But that's where we should pause.


A synthetic oil can withstand tremendous temperature, and still contain plenty of zinc. Zinc breaks down during shearing, which is how it actively cushions during the hydro dynamic wedge. But, the thick oil/heavy weight and wider bearing radial load distribution happens when the weight is "fat" enough, not necessarily exclusive to an excessive clearance, or excessive weight.

Because something like a 10w40 can be "too thick" for stock clearances (obviously dependent on the engine specifically). A 60wt in that kind of ultra tight clearance could be bad! Because the journal surface speed is way too high for the oil to continually flow and distribute through such a small window/passage (which is what our oil clearance really is).

So, I think a good synthetic and running more "standard" clearances and something more reasonable in terms of weight is the way to go. There are a lot of synthetics out there that have plenty of zinc in them still readily available, and cheap.


I know of one car (don't want to be too specific out of respect) that runs 200 1/4's, see's street duty, and runs a basic synthetic rotella oil in their LS turbo car. Clearances are not at all big. Bearings always look really good.

I think the other thing to point out is that too loose, and too thick oil will not be good for like hydraulic lifters. Like johnson's would not be good with a 50 or 60wt.


But if you just run the car to do the burnout, the hit, and then go back to the pits pushed by a go-cart... then yeah I would run extra clearances to not have to wait for the block to grow.

A car that can do "it all" can be done with an Aluminum ls. Will go real fast on the 1/4, be totally fine in traffic, be able to take a long cruise in, then beat on some people at the grudges. And the synthetic oils I think enable that.

Furthermore, I know that when you go from like 20 thou to 30 thou you don't get that much increase in film thickness, and continues to have diminishing returns past 30 thou, can't remember what the flow amount changes are in clearance...

There's some data by king for this. But I can't find the site that had a great write up on the loading distribution. You really have to pick the oil, and clearance, for how you want it to work and what you prioritize.

I'm going to try a super high psi film oil and some that are half that have a ton more zinc