3650 lbs and 1100 whp and currently no upgrades other than a valve body?
Oof
Ever seen those old safety videos "shake hands with danger"

That's where you're at currently

300m input
forged fwd hub
those 2 at a MINIMUM

If you're in there spending money I'd upgrade the direct drum and the main shaft too so that you have headroom to grow into the unit safely if you ever increase the power.

Depending on rpm you can make the stock iron 34 live at that power but it'll be a wear item as you abuse the sprag...best to upgrade to a 36 element direct drum. Iron if you're on a budget. Aluminum for full out. If you purchase an aluminum make sure you get one that has a steel sleeve for the sealing ring area. If you want to retain engine braking in 2nd gear you'll need to settle for the iron drum or spend extra for the aluminum drum with a steel outer sleeve for the band to ride on.

Around 1250 is where you should start to consider a billet spline OD carrier
You can make one live at 1250...you're also liable to kill it at random. Upgrading that part all comes down to how comfortable you are with a little risk on that one.

 

Thank you.

I’ll look into all of it, but definitely the two you referenced. I’ve seen the price of the aluminum direct drum - sill say that’s not in my budget at the moment. I need to talk to my builder about it as well.

I much prefer to buy all of it from one vendor, in case of any issues, but I’m open to vendor suggestions as well.

I spin the motor to 7800-7900 if needed (5.3), but when I had a 4.8 in front of this trans it seen 8200-8400 regularly. That was about 100-150 whp less though.

 

If you're going to spin it 8400 regularly you need to find room in your budget for an aluminum drum in my opinion
Running an iron drum at that level is asking for trouble.
If you can't afford an aluminum drum you best be able to afford an SFI blanket around the trans to protect your legs.

The budget can't stop at the flywheel. I don't mean to be preachy here but I'm speaking to a lot of racers here not just you. If guys can afford to make 1100 hp they need to be able to afford to reliably and SAFELY get that power to the rear wheels.

 

Thanks for the word of caution. I run an SFI flexplate, scatter shield and blanket because I care about walking away from this heap no matter what happens.

I did get warned during DW, 4 or 5 times, about not having a chute or HANS device - those items are in the budget for the off season.

 

I noticed you referenced "your builder". What were his suggestions on this considering he's the one building the trans? I would rather critique that rather than tell him how to do his job.


Hutch

 

He recently retired, 6 months or so ago, and sold his business to his employee. He’s still around but not much of a social media type. I have spoke to the new owner, who is the person that freshened my trans 2 years ago when the transbrake was installed. I have spoke to him and he’s much like his mentor, ‘let’s see how it looks and go from there.’

The original owner had never made any recommendations other than using quality parts for the rebuild. And he definitely does not go for any of the internment lore of HP ratings, but rather offered his usual response when I pickup a trans of ‘bring it back if it breaks and we’ll see what happened’.

But I’ve never had one break after he’s gone through it - he’s done this trans twice and a 200-4R that is my son’s a couple of times.

I do plan to speak to him. And I’ll say, he’s not one to be concerned about my critique of his work or knowledge, but he is always eager to do whatever. He was somewhat skeptical of the Jake’s D1 when I gave it to him. And he did track me down to inquire how well it worked afterwards. He did recommend a manual VB, but he understood that I DnD and put miles on it, and admitted that a manual VB is cumbersome for thousands of street miles.

 

Well, get it apart and see what's left. I certainly wouldn't slide a vb in a stock trans and give it a 1200hp rating but it looks like you are having good luck so far.

Let us know how it looks when it's apart and I'm sure we can suggest some solutions.


Hutch

 

FWIW, as with everything with this car, I’ve crept up on the power. It started out at 750, then 850 and so on to where it is now. The D1 was installed after it had seen 900+ for quite a while. And it has taken me more than a year and half to get from 950 to 1100+.

It’s working fine right now, but I’m a realist, I can’t expect ‘my luck’ to continue no matter how well it’s put together with stock parts - hence the reason for my initial question posed by this thread.

Thanks greatly for the response.

 

Step 1 - Ditch that whale and buy a 2200lb roller.

Step 2 - Bring another used 4l80e to the same builder and have him do the exact same stuff to it. Then rotate them in/out as needed every few years.

If it lived that long @ 3650lbs it'll be mint for a long time at 2400lbs!!😄


But honestly... Appreciate this thread. was looking into 4l80e myself for another project and really didnt' want to spend a mint. Matt Happel has the same fella build all his 4l80e's as well and its basically just a simple refresh with a Hughes race kit and transgo VB. Had pretty good track record into 800-1000whp ranges on various vehicles over the years.

I'm sure thats not ideal... but for the cost of these things if you get several years out of one as you have, is it really worth it to spend 5x the amount on a built one?

Let us know how it goes!

 

Step 1 - Ditch that whale and buy a 2200lb roller.

Step 2 - Bring another used 4l80e to the same builder and have him do the exact same stuff to it. Then rotate them in/out as needed every few years.

If it lived that long @ 3650lbs it'll be mint for a long time at 2400lbs!!😄


But honestly... Appreciate this thread. was looking into 4l80e myself for another project and really didnt' want to spend a mint. Matt Happel has the same fella build all his 4l80e's as well and its basically just a simple refresh with a Hughes race kit and transgo VB. Had pretty good track record into 800-1000whp ranges on various vehicles over the years.

I'm sure thats not ideal... but for the cost of these things if you get several years out of one as you have, is it really worth it to spend 5x the amount on a built one?

Let us know how it goes!

We've built Matts last 3-4 transmissions, we don't use the trans go kits.

 

You're question is both part of my thought process and decision making.

I really want to build these myself. And your mention of getting another trans to have as a spare to swap out is not something that I haven't considered already. FWIW, I have the same mentality towards motors even though my current motor is not stock (rod, piston, balanced, worked over heads), I can throw a Gen 3 or Gen 4 in a day or two and have tunes and tuning ability to act as if nothing is different.

Someday, when I decide to truly go faster, your lightweight roller plan will be in the works - if I don't run out of time (I'm not a 30 or 40 something lol). Until then, I just want to be competitive in the 8.50 DnD world.

Thanks for the input - it doesn't go unheeded.

Jim W

 

Just a thought - whatever you do to the trans, get the Hans device for sure and put a catch tray under the trans so that if things do go wrong you'll hopefully keep the ATF away from your tyres.

James

 

Are you the same James from the MS forum?

 

Small world. You helped me with an MS3X years ago with a firmware issue for TCC lockup. We are still running that MS3X.

 

Trans is at the rebuilder, but unfortunately not in perfect operating condition as I had hoped. I had already scheduled the trans to be gone through this month, but I was planning to run a no prep race Saturday after TnT on Friday night - I didn't make it through the TnT night. It didn't shift firmly on the 2-3 for the 1st two runs but the fluid looked liked new and it didn't make any trans temp. So that was a good reason to turn it up another 75-100hp and that resulted in a non existent 2-3. Immediately after the run the fluid had ALOT of gray particles on the dipstick. It drove fine and shifted fine at low power, but I gave up and put it on the trailer. 4000-5000 miles and 100+ runs was 3 runs too many haha.

It's getting freshened with a billet input shaft and rollerized front hub. I'm hoping I only wiped out a set of clutches and steels. I dropped the pan and there was not any metal, but a ton of friction material. I sent the converter back to Circle D as well, hopefully to get it a little looser and a cleaning/inspection of course.

Time will tell - 6 weeks until DW.

 

Don't forget to throw away your existing trans oil cooler and put a new one on there, your old cooler WILL be full of the same debris & sludge that you saw on the dipstick. I mention this as we see a lot of racers re-use the gunked up cooler and damage the fresh built trans within 5 minutes of run time- needing a full cost rebuild again.

 

Picked up the trans on Friday and the converter arrived from Circle D on Saturday.

I managed to destroy the intermediate clutch pack, and the direct clutches weren’t far behind. Somehow, not understanding how, the main shaft and input shaft touched. I had already purchased a billet input shaft and rollerized front drum, so I had a billet main shaft put in as well.

When the converter arrived, it was a new converter. Circle D told me the OD lockup clutch needed to be replaced, but I got a completely different converter (different serial number), with a new stator that hopefully decreases the amount of rpm drop in the shifts.

I’ll say that 150ish passes is too many before refreshing.

Hopefully it all works in a week.

 

Line pressure question, I have installed the trans and converter and only had time to make a short test drive and street hit. Seems to be working fine, then I checked the line pressure. With the same settings as I've always had I have 40-50psi more line pressure in every gear except reverse and 1st at idle (0% TPS), and it 40-45 more at WOT. Previously made 95-100 at idle and 165-170 at WOT, since the rebuild it has 150 at idle and 200-205 at WOT. I'm not overly concerned about the WOT number, but how much is too much at idle and light throttle?

I turned down the idle pressure to 100ish. Wish I had more time to test, but unfortunately I do not - sign in day for DW 2025. Hoping for a quick suggestion. @Hutch @CameronVic @Farrer-Out @anyone

TIA - Jim

 

I checked my logs to give you some numbers. On one pass where it looks kind of normal, I have ~185 at idle and 180 ish during the run. (This trans has the pressure solenoid unplugged by the builder and I've not messed with it.)

However, it looks like I have problems. On more recent passes and the line pressure is a bit random. One it is ~145psi all the time. Another where it went to 205psi in 2nd gear and then returned to 185.
Pressure valve sticking?
(EDIT for clarity.)

James

 

For sure, the oil level is correct and dipstick has been calibrated?


Hutch

 

Yes and yes.

But some sadness occurred during DW. I lost 2nd gear on the 1st hit. 2nd did work through the burnout, but it left the chat at decent power on the 1st hit. David Gates is a local to MIR, he treated me like a family member, and he fixed it. The intermediate sprag and drum were destroyed. He indicated several issues with the previous 'freshening' and fixed all of them. My week would've been a total loss if I hadn't met David.

The rpm drop issues that I had previously were gone with new converter. RPM drop on the shifts went from 1100-1200 to 500-550. And the speed curve was much better than it was previously. I feel that Circle D, Dan Palmeri, did a fabulous job with the converter. I wish I could've had another 3-6 hits at full power to get the tune fully dialed in.

 

Post #4 Calls out it was time for a drum upgrade LONG ago.
I hope when it went back together this time it got a nice drum with upgraded sprag?

Also, ending a burnout in 2nd gear is hell on any sprag. If that is your current practice...find a new practice.

 

@Farrer-Out what gear should I be ending the burnout in? 3rd?

I’m using a 34 element sprag with a stock drum. But I was told I should be upgrading to ‘pro mod’ drum. Is that what your referencing?

 

3

 

And yes the upgrade options are 36 element "super Sprag" drums
or "pro mod" drums or whatever marketing name they're given

36 element wide dog sprag from a 4t80e
Some use th400 frictions
Some use c6 frictions
But they all are using the same sprag.

You have options for iron drums retro-fitted with them.
Or aluminum drums.
Or Billet Steel Drums.
lots of choices, will depends on your budget and your intended use.
If you want to run a band you should have an iron drum, steel drum, or ATI makes an aluminum drum with a steel outer sleeve for the band to ride on.

Something that gets lots of street miles can beat up the aluminum drum splines so I like to go with iron or steel drums for those.
For an all out race deal the aluminum is a great option and will last many many years.

 

Thanks the answer.

Until recently I had never heard the term 'ProMod drum', but whatever it is properly called, I think it should be in my trans. I will take your advice and use a non-aluminum drum. Is there any advantage to a steel vs. iron? The one I was directed to is about a $1000 part. And it was referenced as bulletproof in sub 2000 hp applications. Mr. Gates recommended the drum that uses C4 clutches, but I'll guess all of the upgraded intermediate drums would work just fine at my level - does that sound reasonably accurate?

Thinking back through the entire situation, the run that this failed on was the highest hp 1-2 shift I had ever made, but not close to the best 60' I've run.

 

RPM is a big killer of the sprags.

Billet Steel is more stable at high RPM vs a cast iron drum.

The Cast Drum may have the sprag live at high hp and rpm, but at some point the stock cast drum itself becomes a liability.
This is especially true in applications that are put into neutral (which is ill advised for 95% of th400 applications and valve bodies out there today, but that's a whole 'nother topic) or in a 4l80e if someone kills power to the trans at the stripe (which is effectively the same as neutral)

The billet steel is often a little lighter also as it's designed and optimized more than the cast drums are.

Many options use C6 frictions not C4.

If you need parts I'd be happy to help.