Yellow Bullet Forums banner

81 - 100 of 113 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,300 Posts
trying to find an origin to this story
anybody got a link

Here's the story I was talking about in my previous reply...

A guy and his lady friend are walking down a street after eating a nice steak dinner on Friday night. The area is busy and the only parking available was a nice walk away, not a problem on a beautiful October night.

So the guy, who has had a lot of firearms courses, notices a van slowly driving the other direction on the street. The guy notices the deep gurgling sound of the exhaust, but really doesn't think much of it. Then he notices a couple of thugs crossing the street; said guy is uncomfortable because he and his lady friend seemed to get too much attention from the guys crossing the street. One of those "it just doesn't feel right" type of things.

So the couple continue walking toward the parking garage, when the guy notices the gurgling sound of that van slowly passing by them. Then the guy, who regularly uses windows to watch his 6, notices the two thugs that crossed the street coming up behind them. One of the thugs is clearly holding his right hand suspiciously around his belt buckle area. Then said guy notices the van stopped on the side of the street just ahead and the 2 thugs behind them are getting closer.

Guy tells his lady friend that they are going to duck into any open business they see, but there were not any available. Just as they were coming up on the van, 2 ****-eaters jump out of the van and block the sidewalk. Guy draws his Kimber .45, and moves to engage the thugs 5 feet behind them; the intention was to go to low ready and size up the situation. The two from the van did not appear to be armed and one behind them was already spotted as armed.

So guy turns and starts to shout at the two thugs on foot when the armed one begins to pull a revolver (S&W .38 special). Guy had the jump because the thugs in the rear did not see him remove his pistol from his daytimer style carry.

The guy always, always, always shoots failure drill (two shots to center of mass followed immediately by one shot to the head) at the range and trains at least twice a month.

As the BG (Bad Guy) #1 pulls the pistol, the guy puts two rounds COM (Center Of Mass) and moves up and puts one in the eye area. There was absolutely no reaction to the chest shots in the BG. The second thug turns to his falling comrade and tries to get his pistol, as guy puts 2 slugs in his COM and one in the side of the head, guy didn't know he hit BG #2 with the first 2 rounds. The second thug didn't have time to get turned around to face guy, and didn't go down from the two to the chest, so the guy puts one is the side of his head. Both third shots, at 5 feet, were very messy. Luckily for the guy, the second thug did get his hands on the pistol (a fact that would greatly help him in the future). So after the two in the rear were neutralized, guy turned to check on the two from the van who had started moving his way. When guy turned to engage them, gun at low ready, they turned and ran to the van got in and the van sped off.

The thugs were linked to other rapes and 2 abductions of similar method, and had sheets as long as your arm. (funny how that wasn't admissable in court) The thugs from the van looked more pissed than scared, and guy would encounter them later in life. Turns out they were members of the Gangsta Disciples. The Gangsta's don't take lightly to seeing their bros being shot down in the street.

The aftermath: Said guy was charged with manslaughter (the jury was given other options too) and was found not guilty by a jury of his peers. Deliberations took less than 3 hours. Some of the city council PERSONS believed that failure drill represented too much force and guy should have not made the last shot on the BGs. Of course, if he had not made the third shots in the failure drill, the thugs would be alive today. So city council PERSON, pressures the DA and viola, the decision is made to charge him.

The cost to the guy to stay out of prison was $18,000+. That works out to be $3k per shot, or $9k per BG.

The situation doesn't often end as well in his dreams, as it did in real time, but he never can quite get it behind him. He carries a strange sense of guilt.

The girlfriend that guy was trying to protect, broke up with him 3 weeks later. She just never could get over it and could not understand the violent nature of his counterattack. She dumped him, which broke his heart, but she was a very good witness for his defense, and for that he is eternally grateful.
The follow up encounters (turns out during a trial, it isn't hard to get the home address of the defendant) with the Gangsta Disciples were a little better; and no charges were placed in those instances.

The morals of the story: Live with what happened, or with what may have happened- his girlfriend being abducted..... It is better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6. When the SHTF, you fall back on your training in automatic mode. So train well and often.

By the way: Best $18,000 I ever spent.

Yes it did happen. October 1998. The whole thing exhausted a lot of my savings, and some credit card debt that has since been paid for. The PD (Police Department) Commander on the scene allowed me to go home that night and to come in the following week with a lawyer to make a statement. Everything was clear and obvious to them that night, some officers even commended me.

My initial intentions were to confront them while in the low ready, and hopefully shout them off. As I turned around, the BG had his hand on his gun and was pulling it. I am sure that if he had seen my gun sooner, he would have it pointed at me. And there is the possibility that he drew because he saw mine, but had he stuck his hands up or ran off, I would not have shot. That and their priors convinced the PD that I had acted properly. There were 3 witnesses approaching from behind the van ****-eaters that saw what the van did, and the whole thing. They told the police that night, I had to do it. When they blocked us in, I had no choice but to act.

I was handcuffed and locked in a patrol car for a while, where I puked up that fine steak I had just eaten. Odd feeling when it is over.

The DA prosecuted under political pressure. I did not spend any time in jail, because it was only after the political pressure did the DA decide to prosecute. I surrendered and had bail arranged before we went in. The PD were really nice to me, and they even indicated they thought I was getting a ****ty deal. The Assistant DA that handled the case did not seem to be too interested in getting a conviction. The investigating officers were better witnesses for me than the state. She (assistant DA) allowed my lawyer to seat my dream jury (some code words there) and she let him get some stuff out. At one time my attorney indicated that she wasn't pushing it because of the way she conducted herself.

Girlfriend: Leslie was a nurse and one of those "I could never hurt anyone" types; I am a nurse and we heal...blah blah blah. Another long story. She did not know I was armed that night, or most nights we were together. I found out early that she didn't warm up to guns, so I didn't push it. No huge loss, the timing is what hurt. With all else going on, the last thing I needed was her breaking up. It was not until the trial that I really knew what she would do on the stand. What she did on the stand was enough to settle it for me. I hold no grudges against her, never did. But I won't date another nurse.

As far as the terminal ballistics of the .45. In classes my failure drill from concealed holster generally run in the 1.5 to 2 second area. I doubt any handgun caliber will create adequate results in less than two seconds. I just opened up like I had trained to do. I was going with the 3rd shot, unless the guy was on the ground out of it. When I say there was no reaction to the first two rounds, I meant his head was still where I expected it to be. I never have planned to stop and fully asses the vital signs of an attacker. My plan has always been to do the failure drill if the pumpkin was there and it was. It all happens so fast, you wouldn't believe it.

Since I was innocent, I can still carry.

As for the follow up visits from the Gangstas, I prefer not to get into that right now. Very long ugly stories. On 2 possibly 3 (the 3rd I spotted them and called the police and kept riding around the parking lot, the police came and ran them off so I don't know what their intentions were or if they were there to visit me) different occasions there were young gentlemen waiting for me when I got off work, once was an attempt to kick in my front door while I was home. I highly recommend the Remington 870.

I moved after the initial incident, and the phone company messed up and my 'unlisted' number got listed. So I moved again. A Lt. with the gang squad said that after a while, the membership would turn over to the point they would forget about me. That officer was at my trial and alerted me to potential retribution. There were Gangstas at my trial. Relatives of the deceased I guess. I currently live in another city with an unlisted number. It has been 4 years, so I hope the follow up visits will cease. Everyday when I step out to get in my vehicle, I stop and scan the parking lot real good. My experiences have served to give me an edge and to keep me on my toes, and to keep me awake at night. Better than the alternative.

If I may offer one piece of advice to anyone who will listen:

If you are ever involved in a shooting, resist all urges to look at the guy after he is down. Move out of the area, and don't ever look at them. You want to remember them as a threat, not as a corpse.

Just don't say a word after it happens. Tell the officers you will cooperate, but you are in no condition to make a statement. Every word you say will cost you money.

If you are in the right, and it was a good shoot, you won't have much of an attorney fee. Just for one to meet with you and go in to make a statement. Your range will probably know a good lawyer for this purpose.

I would be willing to bet most pro gun lawyers will allow you to pay as you can.

My problems came from politics. Basically, a democrat council woman did not like the idea of me engaging her constituents. Other than that, the PD would not have recommended charges. I thought I was free and clear until an investigator called me and told me what was going on. He suggested I retain a lawyer and to give him, the officer, the lawyers name so we could arrange a time for me to come in and surrender myself. That made it a lot smoother.

Cooperate with the PD as much as possible. If it is obvious your shooting was just, they won't push you for any answers. In fact, they may even suggest that you not say anything without a lawyer present.

The officers on the beat see what happens to victims and are usually glad when the intended victim gets the upper hand.

White man defends against young black males. Black female council member with a mouth like Cynthia McKinney. White District attorney, in the south in a city with a predominately black population. Draw your own conclusions.

If I may add:

A black officer handcuffed me, apologized for having to do it but it was procedure and he would face disciplinary action if he didn't.

The same black officer uncuffed me, told me it appeared to be a justified shoot and acknowledged I did what needed to be done, suggested I get an attorney and reminded me of my right to remain silent. Told me not to worry about the puke in the car, was very considerate and kind.

Both black and white detectives for follow up meetings, and to take my statement; all had same mindset with regard to it being a justified shoot. It was the black detective that called and told me they would not recommend charges.

A black Lt on gang unit gave me feedback and 'intel' about what to expect from the gang in the future and how to handle it. He also gave me his card, cell phone number and pager number if I ever needed his help. So the problem for me was a politician.

In any situation, the DA is the ultimate decision maker to decide if charges are placed. Usually the DA is or was a politician and they cannot discount a return to politics at some time in the future. When the DA gets a lot of nasty attacks, it will influence his opinion. I don't know what made him decide to go through with it, but for some reason he did. Politics being the way they are, never doubt anything. Do what you have to do, make sure you are in the right, and be ready to support it. Luckily it is the jury that has the last say. In Membabwe (Memphis), you have to consider who will be on your jury. (hint hint.)

I got the gun back after about a month. I had others so I was able to carry.

Good question about the reload, that is a situation that has bugged me since.

The daytimer carry has a stretchable strap for an extra mag. I usually put one in the strap and have another stacked beside it, floating free. When it is zipped, the mag stays secure. It was a dreadful situation after I fired 6 of 9. The daytimer was on the ground, not completely unzipped and it would have been a struggle to quickly reload. I often wonder if I would have had the presence of mind to ration the next 3 rounds, glad I didn't have to do it. Technically, the floating magazine could have fallen on the ground around my feet if I had totally unzipped the daytimer, but the I didn't take the time to do that. I have adjusted my carry method since. I still carry the 1911, with the 2 extra mags, I keep a mag in my left trouser pocket, and have a Glock 19 or a Walther P99 on my ankle, usually the P99. I used a handy stitch to create a pouch in my pocket that holds the mag vertical and high so I can get it quickly. In the slacks I wear, it works pretty well.

The daytimer carry does have that drawback, but we went to a restaurant where alcohol was sold (this point was never pursued by the DA) and without the daytimer, I would not have felt as comfortable carrying in a no carry zone. It was a trade off of smooth use vs. discrete in an area that is illegal to carry in. I still carry the same way now, I just keep an extra mag in my left pocket. I also dry fire with that rig.

In hindsight, I think a 9mm would have been as effective, considering I had to go the full 3 rounds, and I would have been able to have the additional rounds. That is one reason I am going to be fighting for the sunset of the magazine capacity ban. www.awbansunset.com

I have never gotten in the debate of .45 vs 9mm because they are both adequate if properly used.

Another thing for you folks to take away from this experience. I always have my girlfriend on my left because of the potential for using the pistol. The thing I never went over with Leslie was that if I draw, she should start running to a safe place. So tell your wife, gf, significant other, whatever, when the gun comes out, run away from the fight and run for help/safety. Don't worry about me, RUN. That was something we never covered, and we should have. I cover that now.

For what it’s worth: whenever I have a new acquaintance, we go over these things. For those that resist, I tell the story and show them my 'legal' file, and they warm up to the fact really well.

There is really no telling what to expect after a situation. You may go home and sleep, or you may go to jail. Get the business card of a good lawyer from your range (if they don't have a referral lawyer, encourage them to find one and develop a relationship with him), keep it in your wallet next to your permit, or write the lawyers name and number on the back of your permit. Don't discuss it with the police. Tell them you want to speak to a lawyer, that should suffice. Every word you say will cost you money and heartache. The less you say, the less you have to repeat. Spending the night in jail is better than saying something that will haunt you in the future. IMO, the vast majority of police officers will determine quickly that you acted properly and will not press you. My problem was from politicians.

I would like to add some things to your preparations. Deprogram yourself from the brainwashing your parents did on you. Get the idea "I never want to have to kill another human being" out of your head. Those thugs aren't human. Ending a thug life is nothing like ending a human life, don't confuse the two. "Thou Shalt not Murder" is different from "Thou Shall not Kill". The logic of knowing that won't help much, but any little bit helps. My parents put that idea in my head, and I guess it is good for a teenager to hear, but when you are a law abiding adult, you don't want that program in your head.

When you shoot at the range, shoot at the people targets, not just circles and dots

I think I would want my wife well trained, but I want her to run in any event, unless she is boxed in. Of course she won't want to run, but it will be piece of mind for you. Who knows, seeing her take off may distract the BG's, or she can run 10 feet and then engage them, then they have two defenders. You may want to get an expert opinion, I am no expert, on that situation.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
102,312 Posts
I think it was originally on glocktalk.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
467 Posts
I originally read the story on Glock Talk. I've seen it reposted/linked on AR15.com also. You might try asking there... as those guys have a collective memory like an elephant.
 

·
Roll Tide!
Joined
·
2,623 Posts
My search resulted in: originally posted on glocktalk.com on 1/09/2003 by roadrep. The post has been removed and the user account deleted and the moderators are tight lipped about it. I couldn't cross reference it to any court proceedings.

I would guess its real.
 

·
your mamas ride home
Joined
·
15,279 Posts
My search resulted in: originally posted on glocktalk.com on 1/09/2003 by roadrep. The post has been removed and the user account deleted and the moderators are tight lipped about it. I couldn't cross reference it to any court proceedings.

I would guess its real.
Memphis 1998 look it up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20 Posts
If you are interested in reading a good book on this subject I would recommend "After You Shoot" by Alan Korwin. He makes many of the same points as above such as; never say ANYTHING to LEO w/o an attorney present, if you are unfortunate enough to be involved in a defensive shooting situation it WILL most likely cost serious coin regardless of the circumstances, etc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,583 Posts
Thank you for your story. Glad you and the young lady were unhurt. Those of you who protect and serve deserve much better from the politicians whom you also serve. Thank you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,499 Posts
That is quite a story. Good shooting on his part. I often wonder in concealed carry areas of the country (in jersey you can't carry at
All!) just how many justified shootings happen. And how many result In bad consequences for the shooter. Obviously in this case the shooter was In the right and acted appropriately. Some would say excessive force but its my thinking that if your put in a situation to defend your life and that of a loved one then there is no such thing as excessive force.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,118 Posts
Until this story can be verified, let's take a little closer look at part of it. Something doesn't seem anywhere near right.

As the BG (Bad Guy) #1 pulls the pistol, the guy puts two rounds COM (Center Of Mass) and moves up and puts one in the eye area. There was absolutely no reaction to the chest shots in the BG.

No reaction to TWO 45's in the chest at 5 foot away?

The second thug turns to his falling comrade and tries to get his pistol, as guy puts 2 slugs in his COM and one in the side of the head, guy didn't know he hit BG #2 with the first 2 rounds. The second thug didn't have time to get turned around to face guy, and didn't go down from the two to the chest, so the guy puts one is the side of his head.


Once again, RTWO 45''s, in the chest at 5 feet, and NO reaction.

Do I need to dig out my old loaders manual and look up muzzle velocity and calculate impact force to show either of these guys should have been at least staggering backwards, but NO REACTION, hardly.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
102,312 Posts
Until this story can be verified, let's take a little closer look at part of it. Something doesn't seem anywhere near right.

As the BG (Bad Guy) #1 pulls the pistol, the guy puts two rounds COM (Center Of Mass) and moves up and puts one in the eye area. There was absolutely no reaction to the chest shots in the BG.

No reaction to TWO 45's in the chest at 5 foot away?

The second thug turns to his falling comrade and tries to get his pistol, as guy puts 2 slugs in his COM and one in the side of the head, guy didn't know he hit BG #2 with the first 2 rounds. The second thug didn't have time to get turned around to face guy, and didn't go down from the two to the chest, so the guy puts one is the side of his head.


Once again, RTWO 45''s, in the chest at 5 feet, and NO reaction.

Do I need to dig out my old loaders manual and look up muzzle velocity and calculate impact force to show either of these guys should have been at least staggering backwards, but NO REACTION, hardly.
drugs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,979 Posts
I THINK THE NUMBER 1 THING...IS TO MAKE SURE WHOMEVER YOU SHOOT...IS DEAD....1 STORY...YOUR STORY
Correct BUT!!! Told through your LAWYER!!

YOU SAY NOTHING BUT- " I will be happy to give a full and complete statement AFTER I speak with my LAWYER! " then SHUT UP!!

2 retired Sheriffs Dept Lieutenants and an active PCSD trainer are my neighbors/beer buddies.
We have had lots of conversations about the tricks they use to get people to implicate themselves.

They can't use anything after you ask for a Lawyer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
344 Posts
Did not read all but can tell you my view. You want to be arrested and processed. You do not want 20 years down the road a case to be reopened by new LEO and solicitors possibly looking to make a name for themselves. Esp if all the work and evidence collecting was not very good. Go ahead and get the double jeopardy out of the way. No statute of limitations on Murder. Dont let some slack LEO work cause a family wanting justice for their now dead child quickly become an injustice.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,758 Posts
I would respect someone's right to remain silent until they spoke to an attorney, or wanted to have their attorney present. However it sure would go over well with me to at least say "I feared for my life and had to shoot him" than nothing.
This is important to me, OC. Are you suggesting it is a good idea to go ahead and state that you in fact did shoot the bad guy to the responding officer(s)? I'm afraid that small details about how I behave, immediately after a justified defensive shooting, could have a very significant impact on where I sleep the next few (or many) years. :( Take care. Tom Worthington
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,536 Posts
From Texas Law Shield:

What to Do After Bang!

Invoke Your Legal Rights!
Many countless men and women have sacrificed their lives and fortunes so that we Americans may have legal rights – don’t waive them. If you are involved in a shooting, you may need every legal right available.

Make sure the threat has been controlled.

Call 911.

The 911 Call
If you use your gun, call 9-1-1 and get medical and police assistance. However, the only information that the 9-1-1 dispatcher needs to know from YOU is your name, the location of the emergency, what assistance is needed, and that you have been a victim of a crime. DO NOT DISCUSS WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE OPERATOR! All calls are recorded.

Return the firearm to safe keeping if possible.

Do not disturb the scene.

CALL YOUR LAWYER!

When police arrive, comply with all commands in a non-threatening manner, keeping your hands clearly visible. The police do not know who the good guys and bad guys are when they first arrive.

Inform the police that you have been a victim of a crime. State to the police: “I wish to invoke my right to remain silent, and I want to consult my attorney before making any statements.”

Don’t Talk After A Shooting
Talk to your lawyer before you make any statements about a shooting. If what you say does not match the physical or material evidence at the scene, you may have a huge problem regardless of how innocent your mistake may be. Your freedom, liberty, and fortune are at risk, so invoke your right to remain silent and your right to a lawyer.

Make no statement to anyone about the incident; wait to talk to your attorney.
If asked to accompany law enforcement, comply, but make no statements.

The Role Of The Police
Law enforcement’s main job after a shooting is to investigate. Remember, what you say to the police can and WILL be used against you. Note: the U.S. Supreme Court, in 2010, held that a police interrogation may go on indefinitely until you invoke your legal rights – so INVOKE YOUR RIGHTS!

Do not make jokes or cute remarks and say nothing, even if you believe you have done nothing wrong.
 
81 - 100 of 113 Posts
Top