He probably used it as a boost controller .
I cant see why it would be needed on a D1SC though .
I cant see why it would be needed on a D1SC though .
Using a turbo wastegate as supercharger blow off valve?
A customer of mine dropped off his D1SC Procharged Coyote swapped fox body yesterday to get some supercharger/intercooler piping made. On what was left of the existing piping from the 2012 GT mustang donor, it has a Tial 44mm wastegate. I cant say i've seen a WG used on intake charge piping before but, i am also not as familiarized with the centrifugal supercharged setups as I am with turbo setups. He said thats how the guy previous owner of the donor vehicle had it setup in the car. I would think using a turbo blow off valve would work with the right spring in it, im just not understanding how the wastegate is going to relieve the intake charge piping pressure, properly.
Is using a wastegate the thing to do? He has a Tial 50mm BOV as well that could be used but i wanted to see if anyone could chime in with what theyd recommend to use between the Tial WG or Tial BOV, before i make a suggestion the him. And hopefully learn something new. Thanks in advance
(Can see the wastegate placement just before the intercooler on the drivers side)
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Is using a wastegate the thing to do? He has a Tial 50mm BOV as well that could be used but i wanted to see if anyone could chime in with what theyd recommend to use between the Tial WG or Tial BOV, before i make a suggestion the him. And hopefully learn something new. Thanks in advance
(Can see the wastegate placement just before the intercooler on the drivers side)
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Ahhh well that makes sense than. I dont have any 1st hand experience with supercharger stuff. Ive always had and worked on turbo stuff for the most part. But surely there needs to be some pressure relief / blow off valve on the charge piping? If so than would it be wise to just run both the WG and BOV? I pointed him towards getting a procharger valve but he seemed pretty stuck on using what he has. I didnt want to speak on anything i wasnt familiarized with.He probably used it as a boost controller .
I cant see why it would be needed on a D1SC though .
Thanks for the repsonse
They call it a 'torque booster' and what they'll do is run a smaller blower pulley to make boost faster then bleed off the excess with the waste gate.
We tune them all the time, but I'm not a fan.
We tune them all the time, but I'm not a fan.
Not a good idea on a centrifugal supercharger. Asking to damage unit.
Idk about causing damage, maybe increasing wear by a very minimal amount?Not a good idea on a centrifugal supercharger. Asking to damage unit.
Youtube video discussing use of wastegates with procharger superchargers. Starts at 6:01 into the video
Video: Forced Induction (Part 6): ProCharger discusses superchargers, wastegates, actuators and more
I actually had a long in-person conversation about this with one of prochargers head guys. Unloading the compressor can cause the veins to flex back and break. He told me almost all the damaged impellers the get back are either from trash going through them or a bov controlling boost. I'm sure there are dozens of factors involved why one person can do it and it wrecks another but the problem in theory is the sameIdk about causing damage, maybe increasing wear by a very minimal amount?
Youtube video discussing use of wastegates with procharger superchargers. Starts at 6:01 into the video
Video: Forced Induction (Part 6): ProCharger discusses superchargers, wastegates, actuators and more
I actually had a long in-person conversation about this with one of prochargers head guys. Unloading the compressor can cause the veins to flex back and break. He told me almost all the damaged impellers the get back are either from trash going through them or a bov controlling boost. I'm sure there are dozens of factors involved why one person can do it and it wrecks another but the problem in theory is the same
Yea , but just mounting them to the front of your engine causes them to fail eventually .
Procharger will tell you all kinds of things that you shouldnt do . When if fails , they will tell why you shouldnt have done what you did .
Procharger has a industrial division that makes units for different applications. I was actually doing a job installing their units in a water treatment plant. Our conversation was centered around that based on the job we were doing but peaked my interest and eventually I ask about using a waste gate. Same principles applyYea , but just mounting them to the front of your engine causes them to fail eventually .
Procharger will tell you all kinds of things that you shouldnt do . When if fails , they will tell why you shouldnt have done what you did .
Procharger has a industrial division that makes units for different applications. I was actually doing a job installing their units in a water treatment plant. Our conversation was centered around that based on the job we were doing but peaked my interest and eventually I ask about using a waste gate. Same principles apply
The by pass / blow of valves can do the same thing as wastegates now a days .
I cant see how bleeding off some boost can hurt them .
Peddling them has to be way worse .
I remember procharger telling me that's what hurt mine one time .
Okay, so just stay in it and crash your shit ....lol
A BOV bypasses after power is removed. That is exactly what lead to our conversation. I'm not going to try and tell you why bypassing under power and bypassing not underpower makes so much difference because I can't remember all of it and some of it I honestly didn't understand when he started spewing all the engineering logo.
A BOV bypasses after power is removed. That is exactly what lead to our conversation. I'm not going to try and tell you why bypassing under power and bypassing not underpower makes so much difference because I can't remember all of it and some of it I honestly didn't understand when he started spewing all the engineering logo.
Some blow off valves have bottom and top ports . If I remember right , but now searching , I cant find what Im talking about . I actually thought JGS made one .
We had a pretty unique situation. My company rebuilt a sewer treatment plant and for the aeration basen we had two 75hp Inovair (procharger 8ndustrial unit) installed as a redundant system. Because of some unknown problems with the plant the units had to be run in a lead lag set up up produce enough air. As I understand it that was the first lead lag setup they had done. Two engineers were on site for a week figuring out how to run one blower full speed and the second as a supplement. They had to figure how to dump the charge so second unit could come up again the first.Some blow off valves have bottom and top ports . If I remember right , but now searching , I cant find what Im talking about . I actually thought JGS made one .
When I got my first Vortech years ago, the instructions had a list of things not to do.The by pass / blow of valves can do the same thing as wastegates now a days .
I cant see how bleeding off some boost can hurt them .
Peddling them has to be way worse .
I remember procharger telling me that's what hurt mine one time .
Okay, so just stay in it and crash your shit ....lol
Which in a brief summary seemed to amount to never install them on a running engine lol. It was rather silly.
I modified my big red to do this. Dead easy done.Some blow off valves have bottom and top ports . If I remember right , but now searching , I cant find what Im talking about . I actually thought JGS made one .
But bleeding off boost from the blower, just always felt shit when it was doing it.
Majority of users that have low life expectancy for their engines and parts will say stuff like this doesn't matter. They simply accept turnover of parts and claim that it's normal because 'race car' and everyone else experiences the same failure rates because everybody copies everybody. "It works" they will say. "I've had it this way for 20 years" they will say neglecting the fact that an engine can sit for 20 years or see only a fraction of use or mileage of another engine during the same time frame or that driving and methods of use setup and styles are different from sample to sample.
These same people will tell you not to worry about things like this after the engineers warn them not to do those things. For example water injection to the compressor wheel. Most people with experience will argue it doesn't hurt the wheel but those same people are only getting 1/4 of the mileage out of their units and have no clue why or sell the vehicle or change the setup before they notice the wear. Its the same type of people that argue air filtration doesn't matter and those that will use PCV breathers instead of an PCV system. And you can't argue with them because they have 30 years of experience doing it wrong and have never seen it done right. Then they call anybody a troll for showing the right way to do it- because only 1 out of 1,000 people knows how to do it right it seems like trolling to them. 1 person can't be right if 999 people around them all say the wrong thing. Group thinking? They like each other's incorrect posts and make blatantly incorrect statements based on nothing other than 'it works' without considering that there might be a better way that also works.
My opinion on this matters as a doctor of engineering is that from a consumer point of view you should be careful to follow the manufacturer's instructions if you do not understand how the device works at a molecular level and the stresses imposed on it's materials under various operating conditions in a 3D tensor modelling fashion. Going outside the manufacturer's/doctor's recommendations is like buying your own antibiotics to treat an infection without understanding the mechanism of action of the drugs or being able to identify the infectious agent properly- you might wind up far worse off than you started without even realizing that it was you who caused the damage or really understanding the depth and breadth of the damage you caused.
These same people will tell you not to worry about things like this after the engineers warn them not to do those things. For example water injection to the compressor wheel. Most people with experience will argue it doesn't hurt the wheel but those same people are only getting 1/4 of the mileage out of their units and have no clue why or sell the vehicle or change the setup before they notice the wear. Its the same type of people that argue air filtration doesn't matter and those that will use PCV breathers instead of an PCV system. And you can't argue with them because they have 30 years of experience doing it wrong and have never seen it done right. Then they call anybody a troll for showing the right way to do it- because only 1 out of 1,000 people knows how to do it right it seems like trolling to them. 1 person can't be right if 999 people around them all say the wrong thing. Group thinking? They like each other's incorrect posts and make blatantly incorrect statements based on nothing other than 'it works' without considering that there might be a better way that also works.
My opinion on this matters as a doctor of engineering is that from a consumer point of view you should be careful to follow the manufacturer's instructions if you do not understand how the device works at a molecular level and the stresses imposed on it's materials under various operating conditions in a 3D tensor modelling fashion. Going outside the manufacturer's/doctor's recommendations is like buying your own antibiotics to treat an infection without understanding the mechanism of action of the drugs or being able to identify the infectious agent properly- you might wind up far worse off than you started without even realizing that it was you who caused the damage or really understanding the depth and breadth of the damage you caused.
I see and deal with "group think" every day. Great thing about racing is you can do it right or wrong as long as you can afford it.Majority of users that have low life expectancy for their engines and parts will say stuff like this doesn't matter. They simply accept turnover of parts and claim that it's normal because 'race car' and everyone else experiences the same failure rates because everybody copies everybody. "It works" they will say. "I've had it this way for 20 years" they will say neglecting the fact that an engine can sit for 20 years or see only a fraction of use or mileage of another engine during the same time frame or that driving and methods of use setup and styles are different from sample to sample.
These same people will tell you not to worry about things like this after the engineers warn them not to do those things. For example water injection to the compressor wheel. Most people with experience will argue it doesn't hurt the wheel but those same people are only getting 1/4 of the mileage out of their units and have no clue why or sell the vehicle or change the setup before they notice the wear. Its the same type of people that argue air filtration doesn't matter and those that will use PCV breathers instead of an PCV system. And you can't argue with them because they have 30 years of experience doing it wrong and have never seen it done right. Then they call anybody a troll for showing the right way to do it- because only 1 out of 1,000 people knows how to do it right it seems like trolling to them. 1 person can't be right if 999 people around them all say the wrong thing. Group thinking? They like each other's incorrect posts and make blatantly incorrect statements based on nothing other than 'it works' without considering that there might be a better way that also works.
My opinion on this matters as a doctor of engineering is that from a consumer point of view you should be careful to follow the manufacturer's instructions if you do not understand how the device works at a molecular level and the stresses imposed on it's materials under various operating conditions in a 3D tensor modelling fashion. Going outside the manufacturer's/doctor's recommendations is like buying your own antibiotics to treat an infection without understanding the mechanism of action of the drugs or being able to identify the infectious agent properly- you might wind up far worse off than you started without even realizing that it was you who caused the damage or really understanding the depth and breadth of the damage you caused.
Yep thats how I learned most of what I know now- not being able to afford it. Can't afford to lose an engine. Hell I can't even afford a first engine. The engine in my car has 250,000 miles and 21 years old, its the only LS engine I've ever owned. It was supplied to me free in 2017 I put 50,000 miles on it so far myself at 600rwhp in a daily driver. It uses 87 octane fuel sometimes but at least I change the oil. If you know what you are doing sometimes it just means you are extremely poor. I feel throwing away thousands on fancy parts prevents you from learning 'pay to play' and they seem to get bored or unsatisfied more easily.I see and deal with "group think" every day. Great thing about racing is you can do it right or wrong as long as you can afford it.
Last guy I worked for before i couldn't take it any longer and quit probably spent 500,000$ trying to run promod by group think. I could show him the numbers and prove something yet he would go around asking for a group consensus. We got in several arguments when I would ask him, do want to run slow like they are or beat them. His answers were always, " if those guys are doing it it must work". Finally my answer was if it works so well why am I hereYep thats how I learned most of what I know now- not being able to afford it. Can't afford to lose an engine. Hell I can't even afford a first engine. The engine in my car has 250,000 miles and 21 years old, its the only LS engine I've ever owned. It was supplied to me free in 2017 I put 50,000 miles on it so far myself at 600rwhp in a daily driver. It uses 87 octane fuel sometimes but at least I change the oil. If you know what you are doing sometimes it just means you are extremely poor. I feel throwing away thousands on fancy parts prevents you from learning 'pay to play' and they seem to get bored or unsatisfied more easily.
Decided to give the customer what he wants and told him to bring it back if he decides to change things up, on down the road. He was happy with it. So its OTD and I am onto the next one. Thanks for the advice guys
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