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The FE being a slug because the stock versions were not as fast in the 1/4 as the 409,421 or Wedge Mopars of the early 60's in the hands of the average owners.There were a few pro Ford tuners who managed occasional wins..You can't underestimate the impact of the 409 and 413 in the stock stick and auto classes...That were the boat anchor FE stories came from....My first job after HS was in 1965, I as a Ford guy and bought a 62 Galaxie with a 390 4 speed. I got spanked by 300/327 Chevies and 330/383 Mopars.So I took it to Gasoline Alley in near by Paterson NJ. It was a street of car tuning and repair shops...I was told it was a solid lifter engine and with the Holley, it was a 330 hp Interceptor engine. The valves were properly adjusted and the rest of the tune up done. The mechanic and me road tested it and for sure it ran better.The mechanic stated it seemed slightly down on power but still ran ok..And Ford had no real limited slip at that time.
Well, the Chevys and Mopars still had me..I saw a nice 64 Impala 327 4 speed at a lot ,traded the Ford and some cash and thought I was hot shit.....
 

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The FE being a slug because the stock versions were not as fast in the 1/4 as the 409,421 or Wedge Mopars of the early 60's in the hands of the average owners.There were a few pro Ford tuners who managed occasional wins..You can't underestimate the impact of the 409 and 413 in the stock stick and auto classes...That were the boat anchor FE stories came from....My first job after HS was in 1965, I as a Ford guy and bought a 62 Galaxie with a 390 4 speed. I got spanked by 300/327 Chevies and 330/383 Mopars.So I took it to Gasoline Alley in near by Paterson NJ. It was a street of car tuning and repair shops...I was told it was a solid lifter engine and with the Holley, it was a 330 hp Interceptor engine. The valves were properly adjusted and the rest of the tune up done. The mechanic and me road tested it and for sure it ran better.The mechanic stated it seemed slightly down on power but still ran ok..And Ford had no real limited slip at that time.
Well, the Chevys and Mopars still had me..I saw a nice 64 Impala 327 4 speed at a lot ,traded the Ford and some cash and thought I was hot shit.....
Probably the best thing you ever did in your life... (y)
 

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The galaxie was likely the heaviest car and with 390 cubes you were the smallest engine. Maybe you should have checked off the 410 or 427 mr box on order form the outcome would’ve been different.
Heres some light reading on Fe for you chebby lovers.
 

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Oh I don’t know maybe because he was already heavier than the other cars in his class?

Why oh why P1 is it so hard to give a Ford anything any credit at all? You lost this battle.....brush yourself off and move on. Arguably you could say that Chevrolet won the war in the end. Look at all the short track stock car and sprint car wins the sbc logs every year.

That’s ^^^ just as much of Ford’s fault for stifling Cleveland development after just a few years while handing the performance business right over to Chevrolet with a bow on it during the mid-70’s, as it is General Motors using their might to make sure their little small block stayed competitive among the more powerful “other guys” as Holdener likes to call them.

Their plan (GM) has worked to perfection. Do whatever it takes to win any and every pissing contest all the way to the point where they were wasting precious and limited resources on frivolous racing exploits while facing down bankruptcy.

At the same time using their “influence” to affect major sanctioning bodies to shall we say........ “Ward go easy on the Beaver” (sbc) Lol!!

Flyweight weight breaks, calling regular production Ford engines exotic, restrictor plates that tend to favor small port heads, journalists that were clearly in the bag for Chevrolet every damn month!

It’s actually a fricken giant travesty to hear you call Holdener a “Ford guy” when for decades the GM gang got away with all sorts of misinformation.

The biggest bullshit lie I ever heard (and I heard it consistently) was that an FE was a boat anchor because of its weight while out of the same mouths they were complaining about thin wall sections.

Which was it, an imprecise but “lightweight” GM style engine with .300” thick cylinder walls and massive thick main webbing or was it a “heavyweight” Ford with very consistent .200” cylinder walls and careful crankcase webbing that sought to strike a balance between strength and weight?

Phuckers used to piss me off! 😉
I fell asleep half way while reading. 😜

Holdener...not a fan boy...he just owned 2 Mustangs at the same time...on a car journalist's salary. He must have also owned 5 Chevy hot rods at the same time...seeing as he's such a Chevy guy. :rolleyes:

The Cleveland lost the battle the minute it drove off the lot and lined up with anything with a Z28 on the fender. FACT

In another thread, someone posted he had driven both a stock BUSS 302 and a stock DZ302...and the DZ was faster. Then SDDL-UP posted...but did you disconnect the rev limiter on the BUSS? Nuff said.
 

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Henry I’ve seen this I don’t know how many times. I remember when i was just getting into car scene. I had a 350 chev nova and another buddy had a 68 350 camaro on a early juice jug. Another freind of mine bought a basically stock 70 cougar with 98000 miles and a 4v Cleveland. It was burning blue out one pipe and we were cruising around town burning the tires off the cougar at will. The buddy with camaro tracked us down and was doing his usual kick new car in town ritual. The cougar guy said screw it I’ll give you a go got 1500 into it got nothing to lose. I said your nuts he got nos we going to get smacked. Anyhow to our local highway marked strip and the way we went. The camaro launched out of hole hell of a lot better than cougar but by the time we grabbed second on c6 we were gaining ground and just after mid track we passed him. Wow i thought cant be right maybe he never hit the gas jug? At any rate the other guy never stopped to chit chat so we knew dam well we got him. That really got me perked up on Clevelands after that day. I sold my nova and bought my cousin’s 73 xr7 which i still own. Ive tried to buy that 70 cougar from lee its still at his dads farm with mice running through it. He will not sell or fix. Kinda sad but I’ll keep working him.
We had a similar story at our high school. (Disclaimer- I didn’t personally witness the race but the results were corroborated around school and unchallenged)

One of the hottest rides among the students was an early 70’s Chevy step side with either a 327 or 350 I cannot remember. It was built with the normal goodies, headers, Holley double pumper, Edelbrock intake, not sure about the camshaft.

Anyhow my friend Ronnie got tired of the dude talking shit about how he had the fastest ride. They go out to the pavement and race.

Now Ronnie had a ‘70 Cougar with a 351 Cleveland 2V. It had headers and dual exhaust. I don’t remember any more mods. Just a stock little Cougar and he hands the loud mouth Chevy guy his ass.

Ronnie was and still is a quiet guy. Next time I see him I’ll ask him for the particulars.

That ^^^ was 41 years ago! Lol
 

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Racing against trucks now?

🤣 🤣 🤣
 

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I fell asleep half way while reading. 😜

Holdener...not a fan boy...he just owned 2 Mustangs at the same time...on a car journalist's salary. He must have also owned 5 Chevy hot rods at the same time...seeing as he's such a Chevy guy. :rolleyes:

The Cleveland lost the battle the minute it drove off the lot and lined up with anything with a Z28 on the fender. FACT

In another thread, someone posted he had driven both a stock BUSS 302 and a stock DZ302...and the DZ was faster. Then SDDL-UP posted...but did you disconnect the rev limiter on the BUSS? Nuff said.
I never seen anyone want to argue just to argue like you, at times you act dumber then a rock. You can ignore history if you want. But for a decade the Cleveland ruled supreme. It dominated and destroyed everything gm had.
 

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The galaxie was likely the heaviest car and with 390 cubes you were the smallest engine. Maybe you should have checked off the 410 or 427 mr box on order form the outcome would’ve been different.
Heres some light reading on Fe for you chebby lovers.
It was a used car, you get what you get,lol. 390 is larger than the 383 or 327. Yes heavier by a few hundred pounds. The 327/300 was like a turbine compared to the agricultural feel of FE when they were wound up..My observations from actually driving them when they were just a few years old.
 

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The galaxie was likely the heaviest car and with 390 cubes you were the smallest engine. Maybe you should have checked off the 410 or 427 mr box on order form the outcome would’ve been different.
Heres some light reading on Fe for you chebby lovers.
Not to mention the 427FE's dominated NASCAR, and the 428SCJ won the Winternations in its class in the year it debuted [1968]. Either the poster you replied to, is a chebby guy, or an ill informed Ford guy.

Quote:"On January 28, 1968 Hubert Platt introduced the 428 Cobra Jet Mustang to the racing world during the AHRA Winter Nationals held at Lions Drag Strip near Los Angeles. He drove one car in C/Stock and red-lighted a 12.62 run in the first round of Top Stock.


Ford's 428fe Cobra Jet engine made its "en masse" drag racing debut at the eighth annual National Hot Rod Association (NHRA) Winternationals held from February 2 - 4, 1968, at the Los Angeles County Fairgrounds in Pomona, California. Ford Motor Company sponsored five drivers (Gas Ronda, Jerry Harvey, Hubert Platt, Don Nicholson, and Al Joniec) to race six 428 CJ-equipped Mustangs. The Mustangs raced in the C Stock Automatic (C/SA, 9.00 - 9.49 lbs. per advertised horsepower), Super Stock E, and Super Stock E Automatic (SS/E manual transmission, SS/EA automatic transmission, 8.70 - 9.49 lbs. per advertised horsepower) classes. The engine lived up to expectations as four of the cars made it to their respective class finals. Al Joniec won both his class (defeating Hubert Platt in an all-CJ final) and the overall Super Stock Eliminator (defeating Dave Wren) title."
 

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You Ford guys go on about the wins of the FE by pro drag race builders and drivers. I'm talking about how is was for a young man with a more or less stck sedan for daily street use...and how it was at the drag strips for the average guy weekend racer who flat towed or drove to the track..
 

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I never seen anyone want to argue just to argue like you, at times you act dumber then a rock. You can ignore history if you want. But for a decade the Cleveland ruled supreme. It dominated and destroyed everything gm had.
Sure bud...dominated and destroyed for a whole decade...not including 1972 and 1976 of course. 😜

Oh and that year Glidden ran the Mopar.

🤣🤣🤣
 

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Not to mention the 427FE's dominated NASCAR, and the 428SCJ won the Winternations in its class in the year it debuted [1968]. Either the poster you replied to, is a chebby guy, or an ill informed Ford guy.

Quote:"On January 28, 1968 Hubert Platt introduced the 428 Cobra Jet Mustang to the racing world during the AHRA Winter Nationals held at Lions Drag Strip near Los Angeles. He drove one car in C/Stock and red-lighted a 12.62 run in the first round of Top Stock.


Ford's 428fe Cobra Jet engine made its "en masse" drag racing debut at the eighth annual National Hot Rod Association (NHRA) Winternationals held from February 2 - 4, 1968, at the Los Angeles County Fairgrounds in Pomona, California. Ford Motor Company sponsored five drivers (Gas Ronda, Jerry Harvey, Hubert Platt, Don Nicholson, and Al Joniec) to race six 428 CJ-equipped Mustangs. The Mustangs raced in the C Stock Automatic (C/SA, 9.00 - 9.49 lbs. per advertised horsepower), Super Stock E, and Super Stock E Automatic (SS/E manual transmission, SS/EA automatic transmission, 8.70 - 9.49 lbs. per advertised horsepower) classes. The engine lived up to expectations as four of the cars made it to their respective class finals. Al Joniec won both his class (defeating Hubert Platt in an all-CJ final) and the overall Super Stock Eliminator (defeating Dave Wren) title."

That 428 sure was a killah...


The Straight Scoop on "Canadian" Heads
This story was written by Bruce Sizemore and edited by Scott Hollenbeck.

Ford's 428 Cobra Jet engine had many drag racing successes during the 1968 and 1969 racing seasons, but as time went on racers found themselves needing more power to keep up with their Mopar competition. Bruce Sizemore, a Ford Performance Events Department employee who worked for Drag Racing Manager Emil Loeffler, decided to take action as racers were getting ready for the 1969 NHRA US Nationals held in Indianapolis, Indiana, during the last weekend of August, 1969. Bruce began working with Allen Buckmaster of Ford's Scientific Research Laboratory, where all the experimental non-production prototype engine development work was conducted. Buckmaster was the Key Flow Lab employee who forgot more than most people would ever know about flow bench work. Al and Bruce's "off the books" effort to design a new, 428CJ look-alike cylinder head was primarily done in after-hours evening sessions. Their goal was to quickly produce only a new intake port core for the foundry that flowed considerably more cfm as Bruce felt that both exhaust port and intake modifications would be too obvious. Bruce had 14 sets (28 heads) cast at Dearborn Iron Foundry (DIF) on a Sunday (editor's note: we've seen one head with a casting date of 9H21, or Thursday, August 21, 1969), when service or special castings were normally run. In nearly 100% of these entire special or revised core or port runs, finished heads were assigned an SK part number and they were stamped with that number in a typical obscure place. Getting the heads in raw un-machined form was the only way Bruce was able to avoid compounding this already difficult task by not having a stamped SK number to deal with.

Machining was done off-Ford premises at the suggestion of Bill Holbrook (#2 in the NASCAR program reporting directly to C.E. Grey, Jr). Bill arranged for Bruce to solicit Paramount Boring and Machine, who used a tape machine for experimental or "specials" as Paramount Boring did most of the Ford NASCAR prototype work that could not be run on production equipment. Even though these 28 unique CJ heads could have been machined by Ford using production equipment, Bruce didn't want to run the risk of getting caught doing a "special look-a-like" on Ford property compounded by the strong possibility of mixing these heads in accidentally with other production look-alikes as he stated recently "good luck sorting that one out". Paramount finished the heads on a rush basis except for the all-important valve seat and CC minimum resurfacing work, which is how and why Bruce approached Domenic Garofali, a trusted Ford Experimental Garage employee. Dom did the valve job at his house in Dearborn Heights with lightweight valve train parts supplied by Holman & Moody of Charlotte, North Carolina, at Bruce's expedited request. Dom also checked chamber volumes for compliance with NHRA's 68CC minimum specification. In fact, Bruce insisted on a more conservative approach using 69CC to provide a margin of error. Dom recalled that 11 sets, all with lightweight valves, were driven down to Indy in his 67 Galaxie. Dom and a friend of Len Richter, who worked with Len as a test driver at the Safety Labs, drove at 80-90 mph down to Indy. The test driver (Dom couldn't recall his name) got ticketed in Coldwater, Michigan, for speeding. Dom was sleeping in the back seat exhausted from the no sleep effort with a glass jug mixture of kerosene and automatic transmission fluid on the passenger side floorboard. The state trooper asked Dom "what’s in the bottle", and Dom said from the back seat, "CC juice". The heads were delivered to Paul Harvey's Ford dealership garage service area where the selected cars were already torn down for cylinder head installation. For Indy, Paul Harvey's son Jerry Harvey was not slated to get one of these sets, as the class he was running required heavy valves and all 11 sets Dom delivered were for the lightweight valve class CJs. Paul Harvey insisted on having a set made up so Bruce called his boss Emil at the motel and was told to have Dom take a set over to Louie Meyer (Indy Engines) to see if they could do the required seat and CC machining work. Unfortunately, Louie told them he didn't have the correct tools. At Emil's request Dom flew from Indy back to Detroit, took a cab home, finished another set of the BS heads with heavy valves, and had his dad drive him back to the airport. Not wanting to risk taking the heads back to Indy as checked baggage, Dom said he installed rocker stands and shafts on the pair of cylinder heads to use as handles and wrapped them up. He then carried them on the plane, stashed them under the seats and flew back to Indy in First Class for installation on Jerry's car. Ironically, Jerry Harvey's Mustang was the last CJ standing on Race Day, when he was defeated by Ronnie Sox's Barracuda in the quarter finals. Sox went on to win the Eliminator title by defeating Dave Wren in the final. Here is a video with coverage of the 1969 US Nationals; Super Stock coverage begins at the 1:05 minute mark.


Now back to the Paramount story:

At Paramount Boring Bruce had the 28 heads stamped with his initials ("BS") on the front facing pad of every head. Why? How else could he keep track of who had these unique heads among the many teams that wanted the high flow heads! Inventory control was important for obvious reasons. One giant hiccup surfaced early on as Paramount Boring called Bruce at home one night announcing the heads were finished but in their quality control checking procedure they had drilled only a 3/8-16 accessory hole in only one end of each head. The quality control check discovered an optional "call out" in the blueprint that one or two holes could be drilled. Paramount offered to re-machine all 28 heads on an expedited basis, but after discussing the orientation of the bolt hole they had already drilled (passenger side head, 1-rear facing 3/8 hole, drivers side forward facing hole) Bruce declined as all CJ brackets were front-left mounted. The other primary reason for not drilling the additional hole was that time was running out to make all of this happen for Indy. This seemingly insignificant detail led to a problem when installing the new "BS" heads at Paul Harvey Ford. Due to the 428 CJ having a front-right located battery and tray, this "innocuous hole" served as the ground strap anchor. This explains why all the "BS" head racers who went through NHRA tech the following day after the head swap raised NHRA eyebrows and the 3/8 hole required all the "BS" head Mustangs to ground their batteries using the passenger side header bolt. Ironically, this anomaly also clearly displayed the "BS" initials and was another dead giveaway to NHRA tech officials, who called for immediate corrective action. Not wanting to go back to Paul Harvey Ford (because Marty Barrett worked in parts department and he was the head NHRA Division 3 tech guru), Bruce contacted Ed Martin Ford through Bob Glidden (his sponsor) and arranged for an all-nighter fix of grinding off his initials, tapping a fresh 3/8 hole, and repainting the pad Ford corporate blue. This was all done under the cover of night with assistance from the likes of "Dyno" Don Nicholson and his loyal "wrench" Earl Wade.

Cars equipped with the heads at 1969 Indy ran 1-2 tenths faster (according to Bruce) than those with production heads. Rumors began to fly when some Drag Council members noticed the improved time of their fellow Ford racers. Cars were routinely torn down in the NHRA specifications checking process, which required removing both cylinder heads, putting those heads, intake, carb, and head gaskets on a long card table for NHRA scrutiny. The intake port "three fingers vs. two fingers" measurement deep in the intake runner was not initially caught by NHRA tech personnel, but suspicions were high and rumors were rampant.

The week after Indy when Bruce and Emil were back at Ford Division Headquarters, Bruce received a call from NHRA National Tech Director Bill "Farmer" Dismuke, basically asking Bruce to "tell me what’s going on with the Cobra Jet Heads". Bruce explained that Ford cast CJ heads at two production foundries, with one in Cleveland, Ohio, and the other in Windsor, Ontario, Canada. He had pulled about 100 heads from Ford's Canadian foundry (where in Bruce's opinion there was less core shift with casting tolerances closer to intended dimensions, producing heads that were better than those cast at the Cleveland foundry) and he picked the best flowing heads from the same production batches. Bruce states that Farmer Dismuke used the Canadian head moniker and Bruce jumped on that opportunity to get out from under further NHRA scrutiny as "Farmer" mentioned factoring in that all important, problem-solved call. This is why the heads have come to be called "Canadian" heads.

Monday morning after the race, Bruce and Emil were summoned to John Cowley’s (the head of all Ford Motor Company Performance Events) office and were subjected to the usual Cowley-style beratement, e.g. "so Ronnie Sox kicked your ass again, you guys are pathetic". We then mentioned that Mickey Thompson's Mustang, with Danny "On-Gas" Ongias driving, won Funny Car Eliminator. Cowley then quipped, "big deal, you still let Mopar kick your ass". The conversation then shifted to the heads as Cowley had his sources for all inside information and Bruce recalls having to do the two-step in an effort to avoid and delay the inevitable casting and machining bills that had not yet hit the office.

NOTE: this article was authored by Bruce Sizemore, Sr. exactly 40 years to the day in 2018 after my last ride down the quarter mile and a win at the 1978 US Nationals as Modified Eliminator Champion. Here is a picture of me in the winner's circle, with mascot Muffin and the Wally that disappeared during my subsequent contentious divorce.




😜
 

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Here ya go fan boys...enjoy. That 69 Stank's pretty bad ass.


 

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Some of my buddies were rich enough to buy 428cj cougars when they came out and i will say they were some of the fastest cars I had seen then. When comparing stock type vehicles nothing was really close. The big problem there wasn’t many around. I tried for years to buy that car. A candy apple red convertible 428cj 4spd. Found out many years later it was 1 of 48 built in 69. Had I known that to start would have pushed a little harder.
 

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When new, a 390-powered Galaxie of 1964 or earlier was a competitive car on the streets and local tracks. But by the 1970s it was common knowledge that the average 396-powered Chevelle was significantly faster than any 390 car. A 428 Mustang could hold its own, but the majority of FE owners simply lost enthusiasm because they were outgunned every Friday night. They moved on to other cars or other hobbies, and the FE-powered cars were left to sit or be used as basic transportation. Interest from the aftermarket never really took off, so the supply of new parts was not there, and the old factory parts were getting used up and worn out.
 
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