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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I got issues with a customers car. 1.5 seconds rpm stall on the 1st to 2nd gear change. Its a glide with a 4.57 rear gear & 29.5x10.5x15 tire. The car is 3595lbs. ETs are junk cause of this! I tried everything that was said on a thread on the trash or be trash forum, from up the shift point to adding timing at that point & did absolutely nothing! The car goes 138.11 at the 1/8 to 173.58 at the 1/4 with this issue. The car is shifted at 8700rpm normally & went to 9000rpm. The timing is 19 total at that point & put 2degrees back in for 1 second that's a total of 21 with a big jet on a single fogger. The 02s are reading 12.8 so i don't think I'm off on the tuneup, it wasnt lacking power at that point. The torque converter is slipping 6% at the finish line. The rpm drop on the gear change is 1300rpm, it drops to 7400rpm every time & it sits there for quite a long time, when it decides to recover it goes through at almost 9100rpm at the finish line. Does anybody has any suggestion on whats going on with this thing? Its a customers car, not the one in my signature just in case your wondering!
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Your pulling some weight and with a glide , it will hang on stall after the gear change and thats what its doing. It is still multiplying torque at that point and accelerating. Have you ever seen a glide car do anything different? Your going 1.8 - 1:1 , thats a big change.

Hutch
Dump the glide & put a TH400? Would changing the stator in the torque converter help with the glide? 1.69-1.1 its the gearing!
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I don't know enough about your combination to pass judgement on the T400 decision.

Do you need 7400 stall speed with the nitrous on?

Hutch
I dont know! Thats why I'm here asking! Most people are afraid of asking questions cause they think they know it all but I dont know it all. I would like to fix this problem if possible. Can it be fix? What do you need to know?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
What's Bradco say ?
To put his back on & gear the heavy brick! Someone told me to try one that i had sitting on the shelf but it didnt to the trick. We are going back to Bradco's! His torque converter had 0% slip with the 4.30 & the 4.57 gear, little after the gear change. 4.71 is going in next & see what that those. The R25 BWM is 6.8% that is 9083rpm at the finish line. Even if Brad's slips 2% with the 4.71 gear the finish line rpm wont be that high. The engine peeked power at 8400rpm so if it goes through at 8800rpm or less & it helps the rpm stall on the gear change, life would be better!
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I have the answers for you Jimmy but this recent post you just made reminded me a lot of the shyt kicking you gave me over the thrust bearing post this past winter.
I don't want to get into that again and I see once again you have all the answers anyway so why don't we leave it at that and I won't subject myself to another kick up the nuts.
You would think I would learn after the first time.

Hutch
Hutch why do you have to go there! I have done nothing but ask you for some of your knowledge & you give me smart comments! If you dont want to help just say so!
McMike asked a question so I answered it! If you don't think is the correct thing to do in my last post then tell me what you think or point me in the correct direction. That simple!
I like to get to the bottom of things as you know already. Is the fix for this problem top secret just like everything else in this business is? If you got the solution put a dollar figure on it & let me know! I'm willing to pay top dollar for it, if it works! I know money & top secret info go hand in hand!
You have a technical section here to help people not to make them feel like crap!
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Sounds like the motor is fighting the converter. IS this a bad thing ? depends on the situation. The other possability is that the transmission is somehow binding on the shift. Did anyone rule this out yet ?

what are the incrementals ? 60 330 660 1000 1320 ?
I dont have my customers time slip with me but I think in one of the runs it went 60' 1.296/ 330' 3.496/ 1/8 5.3? at 138mph/ 1000' 6.9?/ 1320' 8.12 at 173. On that pass it stalled for about 1.1 seconds on the gear change.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
And I do help people, a lot of them and I keep no secrets that sacred.
I tried to help you this past winter if you remember and you turned it into a shitstorm. For that and where I feel this is heading, let me out before it starts again with you.

Hutch
If you want to bring a dead horse back well here it is! The thrust issue was resolve by putting a simple restrictor in the pump! It didnt have one! The car is running with the same trans & torque converter with out hurting anything! No mods to the bearings, no coating to the crank of any kinds, no surface finish to the face of the thrust on the crank, .007 end play no problems! Thats a done deal! The racers from this website help solve this problem by telling me to dyno the trans & check the cooler pressure, not by you! You were just sticking up for the guy at fault at the time, but that was all water under the bridge into you brought it up again!
Shitstorm? When thousands of dollars are being thrown in the garbage because of a simple mistake someone made dont you think anybody would turn into a shitstorm! I do! & so did the customer!
I got on here asking for your help! I thought everything was cool between us but I guess I'm wrong! This rpm stall on the gear change will get resolve with or without your help! Just like the thrust issue! Customers are #1 in my list.
By the way, If i knew it all why am I here asking you! I do know one thing for sure this customer has a problem & we are going to get to the bottom of it!
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Hey man... just FYI so you will know, I tried going from a 4.10 to a 4.30 gear. And ran the shift point all the way to 8000 from 7400. No matter where the rpm dropped to it still flatlined and took over 1.2 seconds just to start climbing again. Also, the rpms at the finish line are the same no matter what the gear or shift rpm. With the 4.10's and shifting at 7400 it was 7039. With the 4.30's and shifting at 7400, 7600, 7800....etc. it was 7058.

A whopping 19 rpm's

So long story short, if you find out what is up with this guys car......keep us in the loop!!
Thanks
I will be glad to share with you or any one thats interested on this issue our results. Thats why we are here trying to find answers, Maybe Hutch can tell you the fix since he said he had the answer to this problem & he doesnt keep any top secrets from anybody!
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Whats the slip rate at the shift ? I think you are having a power production issue. Seems like it just doesn't have enough power. I am assuming that based on the 60ft time this is a small tire car ?
It has a 29x10.5 it makes every bit of 1450hp at the rear wheels. Initially that's what i was thinking but when i put 2 degrees of timing back in at that point & nothing change, I rule that out.
The 60'? if you only knew what we go through to manage the 1.29 60' that's pretty good for the class we run in. Its 3595lbs with a 521 conventional head bbc on a small tire, no progressive, no traction control & no wheelie bars. Its very hard to make it 60'.
I don't have that info with me but I'm going to get it on Tuesday & get back with you. What is that info going to tell you at that point? That's the 1st time anybody even mention or ask for that slip% number. I need to learn how to use all of that new info we got now that we put a racepak in the car. Thanks for taking the time & trying to help, its greatly appreciated & hope we can get to the bottom of this issue!
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Thats a pretty good 60. the assumption was based on the time.

I think pulling 2 degree and the car not responding says more about power then you think. It should have slowed it down if the tune up was fiarly good.

The power number seems about right for the MPH & et if it was a dynojet test.
I didnt pull timing, I added timing from 19* total to 21*total at that point. The car has never been on a dynojet. The car its been down the track many times & the et & mph clocks dont lie. ( well some times they do...lol)
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
So you know how much power it makes how ? If adding no timming picked up power I am back to my original assertion. It is not making enough power.

The MPH et and incrementals actually add up firaly nicely. I see no issue with the performance of the car from the data you have shared so far.
For the mph the car should be running high 7.80s not 8.12! I know that by killing timing at the starting line it kills ET, but shouldn't it at least run in the 7.90s? The damn thing flat lines for over a second in the gear change. Do you think it will pickup ET if the flat line is gone? In my own experience with another car it did, but this is a different car & setup.
Okay, so if it wasn't making enough power then what? Change trans & converter or just the converter?
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
JLO , stop poking at me, If you are tyring to get under my skin , its working.
I already gave you the answer but you can't fucking read!!!

The shift drop on a 1.8 glide is 44% , now does that mean the rpm drop on the gear change will be the same number (rpm) no matter what RPM you shift from?

Thats it, now you take that information and tell the world how its done.

Hutch
Can you explain how this 44% came about, please? Its a 1.69 1st gear in case you didnt read that. Like I said before I don't know it all specially when it come to trans, converter & gear multiplication. I don't have to tell the world they are here reading already. I dont appreciate the "F" word.
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
Because I have a PHD in studying timeslips. In order for a car to et high 7.80's or low 7.90's with 173 mph it has to be very effecient or have a ton of power,Stapletons car is neither. The xtreme rules prevent him from good incrementals all the way through the 1/8th mile.The turbo cars can have a 5.30 1/8th and still hit that et because of power.In Super Street at Dagrove the only guys running 7.80-7.90 with 173 mph are 60' in the 1.12-1.14 range.Just look at the guys he competes against, Coble didn't go 7.90's until the mph was there,he's making some power top end.With my own car that weighs a little lighter than Stapletons and has probably 150-200 hp more, when I was struggling with traction I'd have similar 60's in the high 1.2's.I couldn't hit 7.90 without going 176+.Put wheelie bars on and a W tire and you'll 7.90 the car all day because your 330 time will be there,but with high 5.20's-5.30 in the 1/8th you'll need 3-4 mph more to hit 7's.
Your PHD in time slips is good, but your not telling me nothing I don't already know! If we can make the car 60' better & get rid off that nasty flat line the et will be there. There are cars in that class running 8.00s at 170mph those cars are making efficient runs. We are not! Its not that the car is low in power, its about managing the power we got & making it work in the 1st half of the track. We won the championship in your class with a 780hp sbc motor on a .042 tuneup running 7.80 at 173, 174. Its not all the time about power! The car & the rest of the setup needs to be there to win.
You have the same scenario. You have power, but your car don't work so well either in the 1st half of the track.
I will appreciated if you keep my customers names out of this. That is nobody's business!
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
By the way, the on-line et calculators are neat but forget it.The same one that shows you 7.82 has me at 7.55 ! I'd hurt someone for that #.
Like i said before the car is not there. The same calculator that you looked it up on, punch this numbers in it 3380lbs with 1550hp. The car ran 7.58 at 180.+! If you look at the video from that run you will see how come it didnt run the low7.50s. If you feed them wrong HP numbers it will give you wrong ET answers!
 

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Discussion Starter · #42 ·
You asked me why I thought it wouldn't run 7.80's @ 173.you've made 20 posts about the flatline,not one about fixing the 60'.Stapletons car isn't Luthers,infact you back up my theory.YOU WON'T RUN 7.8O'S @ 173 WITH A #3590 CAR THAT 60's 1.3O ! That's telling you something you don't already know.Luthers car weighs what...2900,and 60'd in the low one teens.Brians Gremlin and Trobianis Camaro same way, 7.80's @173 with low 1 teen 60's.Coble has you beat power/weight ratio,look at his car when it only went 173,no 7.90 ! You're not going to find 3/10 in the 8th so you need 100 more hp or you'll never see 7 seconds. As far as your customers anonymity you're all over the internet talking about Tim,Stapleton and Carpenter.Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out when you post et's identical to NMCA race et's for Stapleton.
I can see your sour about something I just can put my finger on it yet! Coble? Who cares what that buzzards runs, if a had a car that goes 182mph but it only Et 7.98...... that dude got bigger problem than us! I'm not going to find 3/10? probably not! But i will find something! I stop spending time reading all of my post & keeping up with my customers & spend time working on your combo. I thought you were a decent guy. I asked you nicely to keep names out of this, not everybody know my customers cars, classes they run in & there ETs like you! In those 20 post not once did i mention name or nor did anybody else cause is not about who's car, its about a stall on the gear change!
 

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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
Don't let the 44 stray your thoughts but concentrate on the % sign. Now take the fact that there is a % change in rpm on the gear change and accept the fact that shift RPM drops will be a % of the shift rpm. That means it will always change which is part of the reason you don't see huge changes in shift RPM when you ring the motor.
You will always fall back to stall speed , in your case 7400 , get used to it and get the car to make it up before the shift or after the shift.
Go find a way to make more power because 173 and the ET's you posted seem to be correct. I would see a problem if you ran 8.0's and posted 180 mph.

Hutch
Thanks for breaking it down like that! I got a better picture of it now. The ET program needs to be better in the 1st half of the track & then maybe the back half ET will come around. Is that correct? If it is, Is it about power or power management? I'm not looking for mph. I'm looking for ET! If we get the car to 60' & 330' (ET better) isn't that going to change finish line ET with out changing hp levels?
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
If we get this bottle pressure figured out Aaron's car is going to be a heavy contender in X/S! Look out cause you are going the get bitten by the SHARK....LOL
__________________




Only thing I'm sour about is your negative attitude toward me, when I was just trying to be helpful.You were concerned about your et @ 173. I tried to assure you that with the restrictions of that class and your 60', et is pretty spot on.Coble was just an example,if you have a hard-on with him then how about Shemwell or Bartholme.Both have better power/ weight ratio than "your customer", they've mph better and never ran 7's.As far as reading all "your" posts, I was the 5th post on the rpm flatline post, you didn't Johnie come lately until 6 days into it. Again,like the post above YOU are all over these boards with your customers cars and owners names. You create these monsters and then want Sssss.Look at all the press you gave Carpenter,now your quiet because the eight-O brick is for sale.They're not clocks off street racers.They're incrementals are posted on NMCA Live Timing for all the world to see.If you'd study those times you'd see you're running what you should run.By the way I am a decent guy,but can turn if provoked.I better go spend some time working on my combo now....cuz you said so.
I posted that, but that wasn't recently in this two threads that i asked you not to mention names. If someone wanted to know who's car this was they could ask or looked it up them self! No one asked because they don't care about who's car, they care about how to fix the problem if its even a problem.
The 8.0 brick? You see what I'm saying! What did Carpenter ever do to you? If your pissed off with me talk about me not anybody else. If you think you got something for the 8.0 brick then put a set of Drag Radials on take the bars off & lets see how fast you go! Anybody can run fast with a big tire & wheelie bars!
I know I can!! I don't have a hard-on for anybody. I'm just the engine/tuner guy, maybe my customer does but not me! My interest is on making the car ET faster. That's why I'm here!
 

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Discussion Starter · #48 ·
The car is Larrys & mine. We are 50/50 partners on it.


So put on a W tire, wheelie bars and strap on YOUR helmet.Bring a "G" to the Grove and your on.
Our car cant fit a W tire & don't have room for training wheels either! So why don't you put D/R tires on cause they would fit your car & just unbolt the bars & bring as many "G" as you can afford & lets see what you got, MCmike! :peeing33x10.5W & Training Wheels!......anybody can do what your doing with this 2 things!
 
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