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Discussion Starter #1
I hate to keep posting so many questions but I REALLY appreciate all the help you guys do to help people. I really do.

I FINNALLY got my nitrous system complete and stuck the car on the dyno and im getting some VERY weird readings. here is the my combo

2.0 zetec ford svt focus DOHC (think 4 valve mod motor head)
13:1 compression
ported head with softened chambers.
230/220 cams
sheet metal intake
direct port NOS fogger nozzles
stand alone for the nitrous kit using 1 gal cell and holley regulator.
running e85 in the car and the c16 in the nitrous kit

28/28 jets in the nozzles flowed at 4psi
pulling 6 degrees from the base 26 degrees

my question is on the dyno when the nitrous hits, BOTH my wideband in the car AND the innovate on my dyno both peg lean (19:1 AFR)

does not lean pop or anything just goes way lean in 2 gauges.

tried going from 3 psi to 10 with no affect on the afr what so ever but does effect power output so I know its changing it. I have not done a full pull as I am terrified to not knowing what the afr is actually doing.

have confirmed that the fuel solenoid is working and the fuel pressure stays stable when the kit is on...

now my question,
if this because both widebands are on a gas scale and im spraying two different fuels? what I mean is since the car runs on e85 and the kit on c16 is this somehow screwing with my widebands and its not actually lean?

reading the plugs is not really an option as these heads use a special plug that is $14 a piece. I REALY don't want to have to keep replacing plugs every single run until I get it somewhat close on the tune.

the car does not fall on its face or anything and seems to pull somewhat smooth on the dyno chart for the few thousand rpm im in it.

sorry I am long winded but not sure who else to ask.

thank you guys so much....
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I have no answers for the wide band, I just question why not use the E85 in both?
I'm kind of asking myself the same question. ...I originally thought that the c 16 would give me a wider window (aka safer) but I'm wondering if it's just making things worse
 

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The fuel used does not matter, it does not affect the WBO2 sensors' readings because they measuring Oxygen, not fuel.

However, if the engine misfires for any reason, ignition malfunction or too rich, the sensor detects the unburned oxygen as “too lean” and displays a lean reading.


I don't know about the dyno WBO2 sensor controller, but the Innovate digital system will detect the high NOx produced by detonation and report it as lean.


Are you monitoring the Innovate by connecting it to your laptop and recording a log in LogWorks? You can also display a large A/F gauge on the LogWorks Dashboard screen.


Is it possible your fogger system is spraying N2O through the chamber during valve overlap?
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
The fuel used does not matter, it does not affect the WBO2 sensors' readings because they measuring Oxygen, not fuel.

However, if the engine misfires for any reason, ignition malfunction or too rich, the sensor detects the unburned oxygen as “too lean” and displays a lean reading.


I don't know about the dyno WBO2 sensor controller, but the Innovate digital system will detect the high NOx produced by detonation and report it as lean.


Are you monitoring the Innovate by connecting it to your laptop and recording a log in LogWorks? You can also display a large A/F gauge on the LogWorks Dashboard screen.
It's the new lc2 and yes I'm watching it on the dyno as an analog input. I'm a so watching it on the laptop with the giant Afr dashboard. The wideband in the car is a daytona sensors wideband tied into the nitrous controller so I can datalog Afr in the car

Is it possible your fogger system is spraying N2O through the chamber during valve overlap?
this is very possible. ....As I have adjustable cam gears and have previously dialed in the cam timing manually on the dyno to make maximum na power.. it is highly possible that I have an ass load of overlap at the moment. ... not sure how much exactly but it lopes pretty hard lol. Should I pull back some intake timing?

C16 is highly leaded. TEL lowers the octane of Ethanol.
I didn't know this.
So I SHOULD ditch the c 16 and just use e85?
 

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There are issues with some of the NITROUS EXPERTS not being able to figure out how E85 burns, so their answer is to run race gas in the stand alone..to get it to burn with cold plugs and retarded timing!

this issue of with running leaded race fuel along with Ethanol is that you change the BTU of the fuel as well as the cooling properties of the Ethanol. AND the way it burns.

The Minute TEL does infact knock the octane rating to a lower point, you may as well run 93 through the fuel system as the "EXPERTS" will never admit to not knowing any better and will never take the blame for you blowing up your stuff.

Thats racing, shit happens....I have heard the stories from customers.

...unfortunately when it comes to Nitrous we have too many people out there that are guessing on the consumers dime and building their knowledge base off the mistakes being made.

buy my product or dont, Call me and I will tell you what I know about E85 and Nitrous based off what my customers have done.... Im not totally in it for the $$$, and while I would like to sell you a carburetor, I would rather help you, see you succeed and have you send me customers in the future....for me its about making racing affordable again!

Mark Sullens E85 Carburetors.
 

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28/28 jets in the nozzles flowed at 4psi
pulling 6 degrees from the base 26 degrees
what happens if you only pull 4 degree? 2 degres? 0 degrees?

my question is on the dyno when the nitrous hits, BOTH my wideband in the car AND the innovate on my dyno both peg lean (19:1 AFR)
does not lean pop or anything just goes way lean in 2 gauges.
Is it popping out the exhaust?
If it what I think, the next step will be lifted ring lands.



if this because both widebands are on a gas scale and im spraying two different fuels? what I mean is since the car runs on e85 and the kit on c16 is this somehow screwing with my widebands and its not actually lean?

reading the plugs is not really an option as these heads use a special plug that is $14 a piece. I REALY don't want to have to keep replacing plugs every single run until I get it somewhat close on the tune.
Plugs look FAT or are you getting some Down stroke detonation on the plugs?

What heat range plug?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
what happens if you only pull 4 degree? 2 degres? 0 degrees?


Is it popping out the exhaust?
If it what I think, the next step will be lifted ring lands.





Plugs look FAT or are you getting some Down stroke detonation on the plugs?

What heat range plug?

I did try a small pull not pulling any timing and it lost power. It definitely wants me to pull timing


It is not popping out of the exhaust at all but again I'm only staying in it a sec or two.


plugs are a Brisk 12 ( only plug that fits these heads) no projected tip.
equivalent to a ngk 8 . Coldest plug they make is the 10s which is a ngk 9.

so I'm hearing ditch the c 16 and use e85 in both... and probably get the colder plug in it.. correct? What about jetting on the e85? Stay square and add more fuel pressure?
 

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Ditch the C16,
Keep the plugs you have,
 

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Stay square and add more fuel pressure
I think so....
but be careful you dont go so far as to extinguish the flame front in the combustion chamber (easly done on Ethanol)
 

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I come from the Motorcycle world (I troll around on here because of the invaluable information that Mark gives about E85) and I have seen this condition before with the nitrous drag bikes. My first suspicion is that the nitrous is getting to the cylinders way faster than the fuel, my second suspicion is the nitrous is unevenly distributed. It’s easy to check how long it takes for the fuel to reach the cylinders, make a pull with the bottle turned off but the system armed and see how rich the AFR goes (or if it changes at all) and how long it takes to get there. The unevenly distribution is more complex to figure out. I can give suggestion is you wish.

It would also help if you could post a dyno sheet.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I come from the Motorcycle world (I troll around on here because of the invaluable information that Mark gives about E85) and I have seen this condition before with the nitrous drag bikes. My first suspicion is that the nitrous is getting to the cylinders way faster than the fuel, my second suspicion is the nitrous is unevenly distributed. It’s easy to check how long it takes for the fuel to reach the cylinders, make a pull with the bottle turned off but the system armed and see how rich the AFR goes (or if it changes at all) and how long it takes to get there. The unevenly distribution is more complex to figure out. I can give suggestion is you wish.

It would also help if you could post a dyno sheet.

I can post dyno sheet tomorrow. ..

I already thought of that so I did a hit with the bottle closed and it INSTANTLY went so rich the motor about shut off.. so do not think that is the problem.
 

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I never heard of this before. How would I go about identifying "down stroke detonation" ?
The little black detonation specks are C60 molecules, otherwise known as Buckminsterfullerene (aka buckyballs). To ascertain whether they were formed by Upstroke Detonation (UD), or Downstroke Detonation (DD), you will need a sub-atomic muon/neutrino/quark microscope to examine the molecular crystal lattice structure. UD formed buckyballs are rightside up and have left spin, and DD formed buckyballs are upside down and have right spin. It is the same way you can tell if a soccer ball is upside down or rightside up. Very simple.


This one is really bad. If you find any of these, immediately contact your piston manufacturer and request replacement parts.


 

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Discussion Starter #18
The little black detonation specks are C60 molecules, otherwise known as Buckminsterfullerene (aka buckyballs). To ascertain whether they were formed by Upstroke Detonation (UD), or Downstroke Detonation (DD), you will need a sub-atomic muon/neutrino/quark microscope to examine the molecular crystal lattice structure. UD formed buckyballs are rightside up and have left spin, and DD formed buckyballs are upside down and have right spin. It is the same way you can tell if a soccer ball is upside down or rightside up. Very simple.


This one is really bad. If you find any of these, immediately contact your piston manufacturer and request replacement parts.





W.......t.......f.....lmao.....
 

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Has there been any flow testing done on your nitrous kit? Be careful about using any jet recommendations made without that info on hand. Without knowing specific details about your set-up, any combonation of jets being used is going to be a crap shoot at best, even for a starting point so....

I would say, once you are comfortable with your jetting, forget the dyno and find a track.

Good luck with it.
 

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