A friend of mine is building a SBF and we got to talking about improving oil pump efficiency & limiting power loss. I was wondering if anyone or a company has tried using a friction cutting coating on pump gears and/or body to minimize drag on the pump while it's pumping oil? This may be old technology or IS being used but I haven't heard of it. Can anyone educate me or tell me what they think of the idea? I'm thinking the idea isn't trick or extreme by any means but I'm thinking maybe this idea isn't even being addressed?
oil pump efficiency......
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I absolutely saw pumps advertised as micro polished or coated.
It might have been a dry sump since that's what I've been using for a long time, but it is definitely offered by someone.
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I absolutely saw pumps advertised as micro polished or coated.
It might have been a dry sump since that's what I've been using for a long time, but it is definitely offered by someone.
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Melling Select BBC 10778 pump has one gear coated and "pressure balance/anti cavitation" grooves in the cover.
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Precision Oil Pumps does this to their SBF pump builds..."The Gears are the prepared and sprayed with TECH-LINE moly-coating to Reduce Friction or HP Loss."
Blueprinted Melling Ford 302, 5.0 Standard Volume Race Pump
Blueprinted Melling Ford 302, 5.0 Standard Volume Race Oil Pump
stores.precisionoilpumps.com
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I'm sure someone offers pumps with gear coatings and advertised as being "lower friction" but with those gears working in a 100% oil bath I really don't see where any coatings could produce any measurable friction loss. The big efficiency improvement (minimum power required to drive the oil pump) would be more affected by oil viscosity and having a pump that only pumps the volume needed at the pressure required.
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do you realize a 1/4 horse electric drill will make 60 psi ???? thats how much horsepower your using,,,,wasting your time
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We had an oil pump pickup breakoff one time on the dyno. I didn't know it till I installed the motor and fired it. Had less than 10 psi, but it was steady. If you jabbed the throttle it just barely moved, and never went above 10psi. I quickly called the engine builder and he asked me how it acted, then instantly told me what had happened. We had only made 3 pulls as the engine was so killer there was no need. So I pulled the pan and looked over the bearings. They looked as a new one would look. Not even as much as a scratch in any of them. The last pull was to 7800 and it was the one with no oil pressure. The dyno operator was red faced as hell, but it was just a bob boo. No harm done except me getting greasy again. That last pull netted 4-5 more HP than the previous two. And BTW, that was the day I became a Amsoil Dominator Racing Oil believer. I ran it to this day.
On a side note, our Superstock engines had the Melling pumps gears cut down. They shorted them quite a bit so you didnt have as much gear contact. And they changed the springs around until there was only 50 psi. We run these to 9000 RPM.
On a side note, our Superstock engines had the Melling pumps gears cut down. They shorted them quite a bit so you didnt have as much gear contact. And they changed the springs around until there was only 50 psi. We run these to 9000 RPM.
My friend's an engineer----real detail oriented. I got curious about this when "Engine Masters" did an episode of oil & oilpans & how they effect horsepower. We were discussing this when the topic of drag on the pump got brought up. Neithr of us could recall if it was brought up on the show & the question came up.
There's more HP to be found in control of windage than there is in oil pump drag.
That was the gist of the "Engine Masters" episode. But as I said my friend is a detail person so anything he can do for a moderately high-HP engine he'll use........
The Ford gerotor design pump is much more efficient than the GM old school spur gear pump. It moves oil much more smoothly, doesn't chop the oil, and maintains better pressure at higher RPM. That's why everything nowadays uses a gerotor style pump. That being said there's been a bunch of companies over the years that have tried to improve on its design with very limited success. Everything from coatings to golf ball dimpling the gears. But as stated earlier in the thread, by the time you oil soak everything the coatings, dimples, etc. seem to be inconsequential. The mostest power to be found is in tight clearances and thin oil, and of course slow the pump down as much as possible. Think NHRA PS. Hell even the late model Ford engines use 0-20 oil. You're much better off spending your time on windage.
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One thing I would like to point out is that the concern with running the pump is from the acceleration of the pump, running it at steady state with a drill is not really a good data point.
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why not ?
Because you're spinning the pump at a couple hundred RPM and not a couple thousand. It's like measuring an engine's power and torque at idle.
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Because when you are running an engine on a dyno or in a car you are accelerating the oil pump, not running it at a steady state. The most important part of the question "how much power a given pump takes to turn" is going to depend on the mass of the guts of the pump because that is what you are accelerating.
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An oil pump is just that - a pump. The power required for a pump to move a fluid is based on the head (pressure), volume and viscosity of the fluid it's moving. The power for an engine oil pump to move the oil volume is substantially way more than any "power" required to accelerate the pump. And the friction involved has very little to do with the gear(s) contacting anything but the fluid it's pumping.
The mass of the pump is the least of the drag on the system. You're pumping a non-compressible liquid through a series of calibrated leaks. The load on the system is going to be the volume and viscosity of the fluid versus the size of the leaks. The bigger the leaks, the less load. The thinner the liquid, the less of a load. Now reverse that, thicken the liquid and decrease the size of the leaks and the load increases.
If you want to reduce the drag of the oiling system, tighten the clearances, lower the volume and run thinner oil.
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