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Discussion Starter #41
I am having the same issue with oil getting in the cylinders. Was built 3 times by a very good shop. First build, new bore size, had steel rings with 12lb oil ring. 80 miles later blowing a lot of blue smoke out the tail pipes. Second build rehone and used moly rings with 15lb oil ring. 160 miles later a lot of blue smoke out the tailpipes again. Third build, different pistons with 1/16, 3/16 rings, next size bore and 15lb oil ring. Builder thought I wasn't breaking it in correct. He ran it in the dyno to make sure this time. Get it home and 20 miles later same oil issue. Twin turbo, all cold piping bone dry, oil in lower half of intake ports of heads. Intake manifold bone dry. Heads were just done by top head guy. Heads were checked thoroughly each time to make sure nothing was missed. Pressured intake with rockers removed to 35psi. Resealed intake studs with different sealant each time. On going on a fourth build with a different shop. Hone was questioned from the start.

In your pictures you can see the cross hatch on the hone. It looks very fine like mine did. I wonder if the same shop honed our blocks? Can you email me who did the hone? [email protected]. I don't want to throw my builder under the bus. He is a gentleman and was doing everything he could.

On my current build, with new shop, the cylinders were just honed with a 325 stone using total seal ap rings, as per total seal recommendation. I really hope this fixes the issue. This is getting old and expensive.
That´s interesting. I don´t think there is a possibility that we use the same machine shop, unless you too live in Finland.

There might be a little chance that the rings did not seat well, because I had some tuning issues with this new engine. I drove 150-200 miles with old ev1 injectors and we just couldn´t tune it right with them. It was too rich when cruising no matter what we did, 11.5-13.5 afr. I switched the injectors to new ev14 and the tuning problem disappeared. I have asked some engine builders could the tricky injectors and a rich mixture be the reason for poor ring seat, but they haven´t seen the connection between these two. So I don´t know... Going to try Hellfire anyway.
 

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Yes , too rich on start up can cause the rings not to seat .

Hell Fire will also have very specific honing procedures . The guy doing the honing will need to know exactly that .
 

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I believe the Hell Fire ring was brought to high performance use only for very high horsepower power adder usage. To withstand very high temperatures and pressure like a NOS, turbo, supercharger engines. Not really intended for normally aspirated hot street or bracket racing. JMO. The AP series is newer technology that should work if honed correctly and loaded correctly on start up. Keith at Total Seal would be a good source to get your prep and break in procedure going in the right direction.

If you can find a shop that does enough high performance work that has a profilameter and can follow the honing recommendations as far as stones, crosshatch and use the profilometer to get the correct depth and plateau hone, that will be your best chance at sealing up. Also I think using diamond finishing equipment may not be the beat way to go. Again, just my opinion.
 

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What is the thought on ring tension? My first season with a turbo I continued to use my low tension rings with a vacuum pump. I have no trouble maintaining vacuum throughout a pass. This was on 16 psi. Will be bumping up to 20 psi this season, and will be using new rings and gapping a bit larger. Stay low tension?
 

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?*♂?*♂
 

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If you are in Finland definitely not the same shop lol. Posting on my phone I'm limited in what I can see.
The shop that built my engine was using a profilometer. After each build he said the hone was perfect. Interesting that a diamond stone is also questioned, as that is what they used to finish off the hone on a 3 step process.
 

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Forgot to add a rich mixture could definitely wash the cylinders down and cause running seating issues. My a/f was 14:1 at idle, 14.7 cruise. I should not have been washing the cylinders down.
 

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Discussion Starter #48
Yes , too rich on start up can cause the rings not to seat .

Hell Fire will also have very specific honing procedures . The guy doing the honing will need to know exactly that .
I had a little hunch about it, that it may be the result of the rich cruising mixture. It was mostly 13-13.5 but every now and then I saw readings as low as 11.5. Didn´t have the knowledgde then to stop in time... Dammit! Well, at least I´m pleased everything is otherwise fine in the engine.

I´ve heard several opinions about ap rings that they don´t seal well and Hellfire is the way to go. Can´t really blame those ap:s if it was my mistake, but I´m willing to give a try to Hellfire this time. It´s a forced induction engine (20-25psi) and thousand miles per year.

Thank you all.
 

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I'd be interested in hearing how it turns out. Good luck!
 

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Good Lord don't go backwards to Hellfire rings. I'm not sure if anyone has asked but how was the engine broken in and what oil or oils have been in the engine from break in until tear down?? I use the gapped and hapless AP rings almost exclusively and never had an issue.
 

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Damn auto correct....... Have used gapped and gapless.
 

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We can go as deep as y'all want to go on the subject of rings but I will guarantee there is nothing wrong with an AP ring package. We can cover barrel lapped rings vs conventional, coated rings vs conventional rings, vitrified stones vs diamond stones, number of cutting faces and its effect on trilobeing in the cylinder. Plateau finish and how it's done, profilometer and RK, RPK, RVK values. Not every shop has the equipment or knowledge to build these very high specific output engines and have them last. As I stated above, break-in is often very wrong, this includes running synthetic oil in the engine before the rings have properly sealed. Break-in with no load, lots of idle time, very rich/lean condition etc can all cause ring/blow-by issues. I had a customer that had another shop chassis dyno his car and the first pull they let it go to +16:1 A/F, they tuned the engine, and it made almost 800rwhp on a 5.7L with Si blower on pump gas. The car had oiling issues similar to the OP. Engine came back out and found that the +16:1 AF pull scuffed all 8 pistons. I fixed it and put another set of AP rings in it and it has run perfectly ever since. It has been at over 1000hp with a YSi blower on it at some half mile events still in the same C6 Corvette. If I were not there to see the bad dyno pull no telling what would have been speculated about the oiling issues.
 

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We can go as deep as y'all want to go on the subject of rings but I will guarantee there is nothing wrong with an AP ring package. We can cover barrel lapped rings vs conventional, coated rings vs conventional rings, vitrified stones vs diamond stones, number of cutting faces and its effect on trilobeing in the cylinder. Plateau finish and how it's done, profilometer and RK, RPK, RVK values. Not every shop has the equipment or knowledge to build these very high specific output engines and have them last. As I stated above, break-in is often very wrong, this includes running synthetic oil in the engine before the rings have properly sealed. Break-in with no load, lots of idle time, very rich/lean condition etc can all cause ring/blow-by issues. I had a customer that had another shop chassis dyno his car and the first pull they let it go to +16:1 A/F, they tuned the engine, and it made almost 800rwhp on a 5.7L with Si blower on pump gas. The car had oiling issues similar to the OP. Engine came back out and found that the +16:1 AF pull scuffed all 8 pistons. I fixed it and put another set of AP rings in it and it has run perfectly ever since. It has been at over 1000hp with a YSi blower on it at some half mile events still in the same C6 Corvette. If I were not there to see the bad dyno pull no telling what would have been speculated about the oiling issues.
Lol go get em Brian school is in session pay attention folks :p:p:p
 

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AP conventional rings in mine with no issues. Freshening this winter after 3 years and 4000+ miles and hundreds of passes most above 24psi. If you’re getting that kind of oil through there something was done wrong most likely during break in. Have a buddy who has same issue on a mild turbo engine with standard moly rings. It was too rich when it was first ran on the dyno and instead of fixing the issue immediately he kept running it like that. It now huffs oil like mad. Doesn’t matter what rings you get if it is not treated correctly in the first few minutes and hrs of its life it won’t ever be happy.
 

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Discussion Starter #56
As I said, not going to blame ap rings. Obviously it was my mistake. Also the brake in procedure was not as good as it should. I didn´t push it hard at all for first 50 miles or so and no more than 10psi after that. Well, now I know how it should be done... Drove 150 miles and then we went to dyno and pushed it hard. I used 20w/50 mineral oil at first and changed them to Castrol Edge 10w/60 racing oil before dyno pulls. I Changed those tricky injectors before dyno, should have done it earlier.

But why not Hellfire rings? It´s a Dart block. Lot of people uses them with good results, also here on the other side of the world.
 

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Nobody has really mentioned the oil rings. Do not run low tension oil rings in your combo. Low oil ring tension can cause oiling problems regardless of the top ring seal. There is nothing wrong with the AP steel rings causing oil consumption. Regardless of any ring type the hone makes a lot difference. The hone needs to be right.
 

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Discussion Starter #58
Nobody has really mentioned the oil rings. Do not run low tension oil rings in your combo. Low oil ring tension can cause oiling problems regardless of the top ring seal. There is nothing wrong with the AP steel rings causing oil consumption. Regardless of any ring type the hone makes a lot difference. The hone needs to be right.
I had normal tension oil rings. It seems that the oil rings that comes with Hellfires are also normal tension.
 
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