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Idiot Savant
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Hmmm, maybe this same answer applys to how Moses figured out the order life appeared on our planet, even though it took 6 time periods. Pretty good guesser he was, wasnt he?

or convenient interpretation of the scripture, understanding, of course, that since you are guided by the Holy Spirit, you have the superior position.

after all, I'm not in the club.
 

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Idiot Savant
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But if evolution was true there are lots of thing I see that I wouldnt expect to see. As anything that is useless should have died off 100,000 of years ago. And how did man survive when he evolved away his hair? This is a mutation that should have never happened, but it did, and its carriers survived, how?
Why would anything that s useless die off....never mind that almost every species that ever existed is no longer here.

Why do we need hair to survive?...and why sould that mutation never have happened?
 

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Idiot Savant
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Ray, how would you know if Moses ever figured out anything? You don't KNOW, you are either just repeating what somone told you (in your lifetime) or what you read in a book, written by people you don't know, long after Moses was dead.

Besides, if Moses could figure out anything, how come he got lost in the desert for 40 years? Even if he just walked in a straight line, he would have gotten SOMEWHERE in 40 years.

One also cannot prove that Moses ever existed.....raised as the son of a Pharoah, in a society that kept track of everyone, nary a mention.
 

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Idiot Savant
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To me this seems to say that all living things must have a "parent", that I can agree on, and that a very long time ago very simple life forms existed, ok no problem there, and that we now have many different forms of animals and plants , again no problem, and that invertabrates were here before vertabrates, again no problem, but to me it seems to say that because there must be a parent, that because simple life forms existed before complex life forms the only explanation is evolution. That I have a problem with....because where are all the transitional fossils? If evolution took place where are all the fossils at? Why can we find fossils from millions of years ago of simple life forms and fairly recent fossils of complex life forms but nothing in between. Where is a fossil of a homosapian without opposable thumbs for instance? To me there are lots of unexplained gaps in the fossil record. To me its like looking at a bunch of iron ore and then looking at a n2o BBC and saying gees, it must have evolved, not exactly the same thing I know but thats about as good as I can explain it.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html

There's a few for you...
 

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Idiot Savant
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About christians being imposed upon. Here isa recent example: My congregation has been told we have to accept gay couples in our congreation, if not we can be charged. We are legalistic and do not accept anyone in our congregation that continually sins. i.e. if you are drunk alcoholic, we will work our best to help you quit. But eventally if you wont, you have to go.

So far we have only ever done this once. Ironically it was because one gentilemen felt a preacher in another church was gay. And called him out on it, a lot of times, and caused tons of trouble over a period of years.

We also helped persuade another gentileman to leave. He felt that only members of our church would go to heaven. Which is true, he just was misunderstanding who was actually in our church.
Who told you you have to accept him?
 

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Idiot Savant
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Amendment 1: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Greg, seperation of church and state is one of the big lies foisted upon us in the past few years. Nowhere in the first amendment does it say anything regarding any church, organization or group not having the right or prohibited from advising the federal government on matters of policy. You and I as individuals are given the same right and responsibility by the final 10 words of this amendment as well.

This amendment was written by men who experienced a government establishing and requiring it's citizens to belong to the government established religion. The words "seperation of church and state" have been taken out of context from a letter Thomas Jefferson sent many years later. That letter is posted elsewhere here (Post #42) so I'll not take additional space for it here.

Well Mike, there's a load of interpretation in that discussion as well.

However, for those on both side of the discussion......

There once was a very close presidential election. On one side was a candidate who was essentially a Unitarian (actually a Diest), but he pandered to the fundamentalist Christians (call this guy John), on the other was also a Unitarian (also a Diest), he was painted to be the enemy of Christians (call this guy Tom).

They threw accusations back and forth about the others beliefs and eventually the election was held. It turned out that the secular vote decided the issue because the common folk resented the fundamentalists intrusion into their lives.

The year was 1800 when Thomas Jefferson defeated John Adams......

The more things change, the more they stay the same........
 

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Be Calm, my brother...

You know dude, you are beginning to bore me.

First, you ignore anything I post and resort to personal attacks. Now I don't mind this, I don't know you and basically don't care if you get hit by a truck on the way home tonight.

I've never said a word about my supposed intellect. You attack it frequently. Why don't to read my posts and stick to the conversation.

Believing the science of evolution has nothing to do with faith. It has to do with evidence, some of which I've posted and you've ignored and made snide comments about how smart I think I am.

You're obviously a Republican fundamentalist Christian, if you can't attack the arguement, attrack the person forwarding it.

I've asked several questions, concerning your beliefs. You have answered none.

What is the evidence that God exists?
It's a friggin chat room

I think chris lost all creditability with his post # 188... see my reply #210, and as I look back your post # 199 may also touch on his flawed logic.
 

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or convenient interpretation of the scripture, understanding, of course, that since you are guided by the Holy Spirit, you have the superior position.

after all, I'm not in the club.
Well I thought it was pretty plain english (so to speak), fish before birds, birds before animals, animals before man. Typically most ancients put themselves as the most important thing, where as Genesis makes man come in last, would have thought first, but not. On the non living side, water before land as well.
He did go to say we would have dominion over the animals. That was probably a real shocker to those living in the Near East at the time, as they were still consider good eating for late night snacks by bears, tigers, lions, etc.
 

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One also cannot prove that Moses ever existed.....raised as the son of a Pharoah, in a society that kept track of everyone, nary a mention.
Well if you look at it that way, then George Washington never existed either.
 

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Greg, I have seen this kind of illogical thread 100 times on these boards. A discussion about God or Jesus comes up, and "the religious", instead of just saying "I'm a believer" or "I have faith" (therby ending the discussion) decide to jump in with both feet and offer us "biblical proof" or something to that effect. Biblical proof is an oxymoron, like jumbo shrimp. These two words cannnot coexist together. So, instead of moving on, "the religious" drag themselves down and try to offer us proof of the unprovable and make themselves look both foolish and/or biased with their own propaganda.

I accept it. There are many on these boards and millions around the world that have deep religious convictions. I am all for this and support it wholeheartily. But when they allow their religious zeal to overpower their brains, all they do is make themselves look foolish, in my opinion. For some reason they don't seem to be able to say about God or Jesus, "I don't know but my beliefs are good enough for me."
 

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That's one thing I will say amen to, George

I just don't know what it is that's so much fun about pokin' a stick at those that can't admit the truth...although I will stick by my thoughts on taxing the church.
 

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Why would anything that s useless die off....never mind that almost every species that ever existed is no longer here.

Why do we need hair to survive?...and why sould that mutation never have happened?
Evolution is based on mutations. Ie. two things make and you dont get a 50/50 split in the off spring. Now they say that we are supposed to keep the beneficial mistakes, the ones that arent are supposed to die off. i.e. like if I had an extra pensi growing out of my forehead, it probably would not get passed on because i would have a hard time finding a reproducing partner. Bad example but I am in a hurry.

But this is the basis of marcoevolution. I have a kid that has wings, they are helpful, so he is breed and his off spring have a 50/50 chance of picking up the beneficial mutation. Everything that is different between us, flies, and elephants happened this way, according to evolution. The bad mutations were not likely to be passed on as they made the person less desirable to mate with.

So in the example of hair. Up until 10,000 BC the world was experiencing an ice age. Hair helps retain heat. So who ever got the mutation that caused hair loss, would have been a nondesirable person to mate with. So it should be a big question of how it happened. Why dont we have dense hair like all of our relatives? No logical reason for us not to.
 

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It's like this Greg. If they tell us what is true FOR THEMSELVES, no one has a problem. It's when they insist on telling us what should be true FOR US, we turn off.

Of course, when it comes to "the religious" making unprovable statments based on biblical text, Mark O'Neal turns in to the Energizer Bunny, eagerly applying the needle to "the religious". Mark can be like a tenatious bulldog. He never let's go.

To get out from under his ability to slice, dice, peel and puray some poor doofus into a vapor, all they need to say is, "OK, I admit that I can't prove any of this (which we all know anyway) but my religious beliefs are my religious beliefs. They are personal to me and understanably do not apply to anyone but myself."

I can see Mark now, in my mind. Drool is dripping out of the side of his mouth which always happens just before he takes another bite.
 

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LOL, I can prove there is long odds on the prophecies god wrote about coming true. But that in it self is not proof. Truth is I am not here to prove to you God exists, not something I am capable of.

In a thread like this I am only here to encourage you to look deep into what you think is correct, because I think you will find that you are surprised at what you find.

If evolution, our other main choice, is so convincingly true, why is that not only a great portion of sceintists dont believe it, but a marked percentage are abandoning it for other possible theories (not all God driven either). One would think that if it was so concrete that no nonbeliever would think differently.

George, if you ever want to met a real christian eater, there is a guy called "Dude" on christian debate. Even if you got all your ducks in a row, he is good at putting your foot in your mouth. It was because of him I learned alot about science, ironically how much I didnt trust it. He also taught me a lot about sciptures too, which I dont think his original goal was. But more than once I showed up at church thinking I was just going to say goodbye. Then one of the elder gentleman would put some perspective on what I had been told, and i would get back on the saddle again. LOL.
 

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I rarely have any deep discusions about religion with anyone. I don't want to offend them and I don't want them to offend themselves. I, on the other hand, am offensive enough for 10 people, religious or otherwise. But anytime I do get into a "debate" regarding God, Jesus, Mother Mary or anyone else, my usual comeback is "Prove it to my satisfaction", which hasn't happened yet. I know that a couple of years ago, when the book and then the movie by Brown came out (I forgot the title), all my Catholic friends went ape shit trying to defend "their story", much to my delight. I kept egging them on, of course, in my usual cool way, like "So, Jesus was fucking Mary M., huh?"

That always went over rather poorly.
 

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One also cannot prove that Moses ever existed.....raised as the son of a Pharoah, in a society that kept track of everyone, nary a mention.
in the book it was written, that after moses left egypt his name was forever stricken from all text and was to never be spoken agian, so it's been told.
that is why there are no record's of moses to be found in egypt.
 

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You can't say the Bible is the end all and then make shit up......not to mention that incest was one of many offenses punishable by getting stoned to death....along with disobeying you parents and and a number of other minor infractions.
What is being made up? You are implying that the way you read something is better than someone else? Maybe you should actual study the book before you comment on it. What was Eve's punishment for her fall? Why is that a punishemnt if she has yet to have children. Bottomline is you are adding what you want to the scriptures.

The Law of Moses comes a long time after Cain and Able. Funny though how we have so many problems with incest births now-a-days, but for 100,000 of years it was the only way?
 

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I keep hearing about the this book.

in the book it was written, that after moses left egypt his name was forever stricken from all text and was to never be spoken agian, so it's been told.
that is why there are no record's of moses to be found in egypt.
You couldn't mean a book written by man, could you...because man writes books to serve their own needs at a particular moment in time, and that need changes with every rewrite,
If you need proof lets compare something we can actually cheek and verify, yet allows enough time for a few version to have been published.
I'd suggest comparing a Japanese school books version of WW2 with an American School book.
After you read the two different the 2 stories of WW2 have gotten in only 60 years...Explain to me how creditable a book written centuries ago is. If you choose to believe, as George says then OK, but to hold it up as fact gets a bit sketchy
 

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I'm not sure why this keeps going on and on. You can not prove religion. That's why it's called faith. And you can not prove a big bang theory. That's why it's called a theory. As far as evolution, that's passable knowing what I do about selective breeding in dogs for 20 years. Does it seem strange that Mendel the father of genetics was a Catholic monk? I'm guessing he didn't have trouble acknowledging evolution and having faith.

What happens is, the non believer wants to reinforce his commitment not to believe, and the believer wants him to be able to enjoy the benefits of believing. It becomes an unfruitful debate that neither side can get any satisfaction from. The believer will never lead a hardened heart to Faith and the non believer will never justify completely in not believing. It is a personal thing, but it's good these subjects come up to make people think.
 

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I am a bit lost here. If Moses wrote the stuff over 3500 years ago, and science is just coming to the conclusion two decades ago he was right, how does that make the old book sketchy?

Now to further the thought, what did Moses have to gain from the writings. In the end he writes about his mistakes, and how he cant see the promised land because of them, but still loves his God. He had nothing to gain, and lots to lose, so what would his point be?

In the Japanese vs American history books, which one is right? Do you guys pull another War 0f 1812 trick?
 
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