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Discussion Starter #1
Looking for info specific to piston ring choice and cylinder head choice, this will be a low deck Merlin 3 block with the steel mains, 4.250 stroke x 4.600 bore, 6.385 rod length, Dominator on a Super Victor intake (already have).

Pistons, I was thinking Wiseco customs with around 14.5:1 compression, top gas ported, and a hellfire .043/1/16/3/16 ring package, engine to run Evac u pans, no budget for dry sumps or vacuum pump setups. Thoughts on this?

Heads, looking at Edelbrock's new Musi CNC ported 24 degree heads, but info is extremely limited on them. Am open to other suggestions, but the Super Victor intake and conventional 2 1/8" headers must work with them. Shaft rockers are a consideration dependant on budget. Suggestions?

Car is to be a tube chassis 55 Bel Air, 14x32's, 4 link, etc. Car's current best with an iron head 427 is a 9.19 @ 140+, 275 big shot kit. Would like to duplicate those numbers N/A with the new bullet if possible.

Please help!
 

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I'd really steer you towards the Dart Pro1 CNC 355cc head. That's a very good cnc program and will make tons of steam. I've seen the AFR BB head make good steam too... but I really like the Pro1.

Have you considered a steel ring package? JE makes one that is 1.2, 1.5, 3mm.... it would be a good package for a no vacuum pump deal, but I'd like to see gas ports with them. The top rings are carbon steel deal.

Let me know what you think about that and we' can discuss further.
 

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Thanks for the speedy reply Chris!

First things first, this engine will possible see nitrous, no more than the odd 275 Big Shot plate pass, are those rings compatible?

What kind of hone do you want to see with those rings? Torque plates and mains torqued for sure, but we are currently using a CK-10 with 625 stones to final cold size then 16 strokes with the Sunnen brushes. Is this along the lines of what will work with those rings? I am concerned with sealing up the bores against the oil below without the vac pump. JE is also a choice for custom pistons through our dealer, and gas ports are a given at this point.

So are you saying the Dart heads have a better potential than the AFR's? Have you seen or heard about the Musi heads? Also, do you buy the heads complete, or prefer to buy them bare and outfit them with Severe Duty valves and a Nextec spring/retainer package?

Do you see enough potential in this 565 for low 9's N/A in this 3200# w/driver ride?

Thanks again,

Doug
 

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I've work on a 565 with pro filler's that made 980 and ran low 9's in a 3400 lbs car with 10.5's and a nitrous set up, have you looked at the new BMF stuff look's good and very reasonably priced
 

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Doug, if this thing didn't go bottom 9, and even some 8's n/a at 3200ya done something wrong!!! Granted, this would be if it were optimized for n/a.... I'm pretty stuck on the Dart heads right now only because they have some killer cnc programs for those heads. I haven't done anything with the BMF head, and the only guy I know who did, the car wouldn't fall out of a tree... maybe there were other problems I don't know, but that bmf head went to a cylinder head guy and he claims he picked it up 80 cfm. :shock:



79rustbucket79 said:
Thanks for the speedy reply Chris!

First things first, this engine will possible see nitrous, no more than the odd 275 Big Shot plate pass, are those rings compatible?

What kind of hone do you want to see with those rings? Torque plates and mains torqued for sure, but we are currently using a CK-10 with 625 stones to final cold size then 16 strokes with the Sunnen brushes. Is this along the lines of what will work with those rings? I am concerned with sealing up the bores against the oil below without the vac pump. JE is also a choice for custom pistons through our dealer, and gas ports are a given at this point.

So are you saying the Dart heads have a better potential than the AFR's? Have you seen or heard about the Musi heads? Also, do you buy the heads complete, or prefer to buy them bare and outfit them with Severe Duty valves and a Nextec spring/retainer package?

Do you see enough potential in this 565 for low 9's N/A in this 3200# w/driver ride?

Thanks again,

Doug
 

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When you're in the cu. in. range say 520's to 598' does the cubic inch really make much more power or just shift where the power occurs at in the RPM range? Given that the same basic cyl head/intake/cam system is used that is. The more cars and motors I look at (nitrous combos that is) the more it looks to me like at that cubic inch level it's really more down to the head, intake and cam combo moreso than if one motor has a 20 extra cubic inches. Why not spin a little motor faster?
 

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Well, weight being equal, you really should concentrate on hp/cid.... you can't dismiss that the 600 is 80 cubic inchs greater than the 520. 80 cubic inchs times 2-3 hp/cid depending on n/a or power adder is significant amount left on the table.... regardless of rpm range.

Of course rules all play an important role, in how they govern induction, and how that will choke a combination...

Weight not being equal, that's a whole nother ballgame.
 

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Sorry, I was thinking out loud a bit. What I was trying to get at is that using a certain head/cam/intake combination there will be a sweet spot cubic inch wise, where that adding additional cubic inches to it may pick up some but not as much as if there were no airflow restrictions.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Chris, in what state do you buy the Dart heads in, bare or dressed?

Camming we're looking at somewhere around the 286/[email protected], .800 lift on a 112 or 114 c/l, again looking for best performance off the hose. If I had it my way, the nitrous kit wouldn't be used, but the option must be left open for him.
 

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See copy/pasted item below that was posted by me in another topic in this forum:

BMF heads can't be beat for the cost.

Not sure who is casting these for CFE but I know the big block heads are cast by Canfield and they (big blocks) work very well for the price.

Same guy with the small block has a big block that was built on the cheap, using the BMF heads. All catalog stuff (tailored for the owner & his lack of enthusiasm for working on things too much) with moderate compression and small intake volume heads.

That combination is:

4.5" x 4.5"
Merlin Pro tall deck block (bought super cheap with exterior cracks-easy fix)
Lunati Pro crank
Oliver 6.800" rods
13.7 to 1
Catalog JE pistons
BMF 350 cc heads (under $3K complete)
4-stage dry sump (all Moroso-won as a prize, otherwise it'd be wet sump)
Typical 7/4 swap roller with 286°/314°@ .050" duration and .816"/.782" gross lift on 114° lobe centers
1-4bbl Dart intake, out of the box
1150 alky carb

On Scott Koffel's dyno (dyno time another part of the prize winnings) the engine made 1003 HP. That's absolutely exaggerated but no doubt it makes 950 HP. Car weighs near 2500# with the BBC and has run 8.14 @ 167, shifting at 6800 & running through at around 7400. 400-plus passes between rebuilds.

Nice to see decent stuff come out for racers who aren't interested in making a race car into a science project. Also nice because a replacement can be had for cheap if the bracket warriors go out & blow something up.
 

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man I hope what Chris U says about the combo w/ the BMF's was a fluke...... I have a 565 w/ 385cc BMF's going together now w/ high expectations
 

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It might be a fluke.... I have not built anything with the BB BMF head so I can't speak as an authority. Tommy Thompson in NMCA Pro Stock had the BMC350cc on a 520 inch BBC, built by Steve Schmidt and it wouldn't fall out of a tree.... Todd Goodwin got ahold of the heads and stated that he picked them up significantly. The next race, the car picked up about 3 tenths. That's all I know.

I have a difficult time believing anything that comes out of CFE isn't killer... or at least at the top of the game. I have a killer set of CFE heads right now going on an engine so I do have faith in their work.
 

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I wouldn't get too worried about the BMF's.

No doubt a competent guy could go in after the "rough work" is done and customize these to better suit a given engine.

Considering the fact that these sell for pretty low $$$, it's probably reasonable to assume the ports are designed to be CNC'ed in the least amount of time possible.

My racer's 572 had the 355 cc heads on it (small for this CID) and it makes very good, consistant, and reliable power vs. money spent.

I'm pretty sure a 565 with 385's on it will produce around 1K HP based on what I've seen with the smaller head. That's not bad for around $3K.

Class racers shouldn't be looking at the "package specials" unless they only expect average performance. (i.e. running NHRA Pro Stock with cookie cutter Big Chief heads vs. the real deal).

Doing this is almost like running a stock block & cheap crank up to 9-grand; It's not made for that.

Bottom line? Racer probably wanted more for less, then likely spent what he should have in the first place to get what he needed in the first place. Same final results at same or higher costs with more time & travel spent.

Too bad this happens so often. It usually means the racer will float from shop to shop in order to avoid hearing "I told you so" or "You didn't say you were going to do "x" with them".
 
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