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Discussion Starter #1
I'm the Product Development Manager for Perfect Circle Performance and OE rep rings. I always like to see what people run for piston rings and why they feel there set up works best. If your willing to share your combination to the public (some wont) and explain why you like to run it, I would like to hear from you. Also if there is something you feel may work better I would like to hear this as well, always looking to improve the ring line!

Later..
RPM
 

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RPM:

Does Dana have any plans in place to enter the racing/performance market with their Micro-Napier second rings? Also, can you tell me what bore diameters & thicknesses are currently available for these? Thanks.
 

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I'd like to see some good discussion on this topic. I will share my experiences. I've used the trick of the week coated top rings, diamond finish ultra high tolerance top rings, gapless top rings, napier second rings. Done a lot of stupid things with oil rings.

I've come to this conclusion, and being a ring engineer you'll probably balk at this statement, but I'm in the position right now that compression ring seal is way over-rated. I'm sure that will make some folks choke on that one, but some experiences as of late leave me to that conclusion. Not talking oil control, just compression. We see all this trick of the week, month, year technology for top rings in terms of coatings, gap types, finishes, tolerances etc and I'm only speaking from a drag racing perspective, but I just don't see the proof in the pudding.

I realize some of these ideas are relative to ring life and durability, and I'm not discounting that area.

Let me give an example. I was using a gapless top ring in a drag race deal, and we had some tune up issues that hurt a couple rings pretty bad. It actually made the ring curl inwards, in other words pulled away from the wall, for about 120 degrees of circumference. 2 dead holes. Only found this on a health check. Had good oil control so we didn't detect it in the plugs. I repaired it and expected some performance improvements and we might have gained .05 in ET... no real mph... maybe 1/2 mph. Had the leakdown numbers on those 2 holes indicated valve seal issues, we would have seen a larger discrepency in my opinion.

So some might ask, 'So what'?? Well, my point is that sportsman racers in the drag racing community need to be cautious in throwing money at big dollar rings. It's not hard today to spend 6-7 hundys on a ring pack for a bag of tricks claiming horsepower.

If we want to talk durability for a nitrous or power adder combination, or for an endurance engine then I can see the extra money spent for alternative coatings, materials and other areas of ring design.

Now don't go thinking I take ring design lightly, I'm using a worst case example to show my thoughts on the sensitivity of the issue. My case in point has high crankcase vacuum, which tends to help cover up ring issues.

These are just my opinions. I'd like to hear some others.

I also have some napier experiences I'd like to share but I'll wait for further discussion.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Rob,

We have them in the line we call them a .043" mini hook from 4.000" to 4.190" bore.

I have a set in my engine at the moment and they seem to be working great! I am running a 1.0MM top, .043" mini hook and a 3.0MM std oil. I'm a bit skeptical to how the 1.0MM will hold up to the bottle but someone had to test them.... 8)
 

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The only ring RPM should be investigating is an engagement ring for Autumn :shock:
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Chris,

I have had the mini hook in past engines and it works well the 1.0MM Steel top ring is new to my combination. I have some answers for you questions I just need to take am moment and think of a political way to word it since many of these places purchase millions in rings from us each year!
 

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Discussion Starter #8
UndyDog....... I have to see if Dales works first! :-D
 

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I'm too impatient to wait so I might as well get on with the napier ring I wanted to talk about.

My experience so far is that it is sensitive to hard detonation. The last time I used it upon teardown the ring was separated at the thinest part of the section....behind the hook. The only thing I can attribute this to is detonation.

Do you have any thoughts on that?
 

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Chris:

Are you completely certain the J-hook didn't grab a little when it was installed? Yeah-yeah-yeah, I'm sure your installer ring is in good order and your delecate hands didn't ram the piston in carelessly (LOL!!!). Only suggesting this as a possibility because delicate rings & near-zero bore chamfers can certainly fatigue or fracture that area of the ring during initial installation.

Also, completely agree with you about the tricks of the week. It's all about leak over time so the smooth finish & no-gap stuff probably will never pay itself back to a sportsman-level racer. No question there are durability gains for eztreme endurance applications though.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Chris,

Its very uncommon to have the hook break from detonation. I would guess that it broke on instalation. We have had these rings out for 6 seasons now and the first 2 were NASCAR only they have held up realy well. I have broke a few putting them in my own engines with a band style ring compresor. I have since went to a bore specific sleeve and eliminated the snag issue. I will also say the bore specific sleeve will wear and eventualy hang up so its a good idea to replace them no and then.

If you still feel the ring broke due to detonation, what did the top ring look like and how well did the piston hold up. Hard to tell without seeing the parts.

Regards,
RPM
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Chris....

To answer your first post on the trick of the week rings I would assume you are speaking to the many variations of the gapless rings available. Here at PC we do not feel a gapless ring is any better than a gap style ring. A gapless second promotes top ring flutter, top ring flutter breaks the compression seal evey time the ring bounces and also speeds the process of groove poundout. If your going to use a gapless I would suggest always running a gapless top ring. 80% of your oil control is done by the second ring so asking that ring to stop oil and seal compression is asking for trouble. Most all of the record setting NHRA, IHRA, NASCAR, WOO and the list goes on run a gap style ring.

Another trick of the week many tend to get caught up in is ring coatings to resist micro welding (Not Face Coatings). We have gone down this road trying many diff types of PVD coatings and many I cant talk about. Fact is they were masking problems in teams race engines so when they found and corrected the problem micro welding was reduced to a minimum.

Diamond ground or PSG rings..... I see you have been through the whole total seal book.... :lol: This works...... We have these rings as well that we make specificaly for NASCAR and the do make more power. Here is the catch, the teams we sell these rings to make there own pistons.... Having a perfectly flat ring will not do anything if the top ring groove is not perfect. With that said it will be hard to find a piston available to us at the moment where this ring will show a gain on the dyno..... I guess my point here is would these help and engine with a power adder, not realy, would I spend the money to run them in a power adder engine.... NO......

Napier or the THG ring is not a trick of the week..... This ring has been around for years in many OE applications. We ran a 1.5MM in the cup cars for a few seasons seen how well it worked and decided to put the ring in our performance line. The napier ring will provide better oil control than any other second ring available due to the sharp hook on the outer edge that acts likes a squeege on the downward stroke and pulls a nice oil film for the skirt to ride on durring the upward stroke. Due to the added oil control many have been able to reduce the oil ring tension to free up some friction and this will ultimatly lead to more power. Now the question is do the other second rings work, yes.... Do they work as well as the napier, NO..... We have stoped a lot of oil consuption in OE engines with the napier style rings..... Proof they work well and last!

I hope I helped some.... Do we as a drag racing community need the high end trick of the week? NO we dont.... Can we gain performance by running some of the better ring combinations out there.... Yes we can, but it comes with a price and how much do you want to pay to go fast.
 

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ROB said:
Chris:

Are you completely certain the J-hook didn't grab a little when it was installed? Yeah-yeah-yeah, I'm sure your installer ring is in good order and your delecate hands didn't ram the piston in carelessly (LOL!!!). Only suggesting this as a possibility because delicate rings & near-zero bore chamfers can certainly fatigue or fracture that area of the ring during initial installation.

Also, completely agree with you about the tricks of the week. It's all about leak over time so the smooth finish & no-gap stuff probably will never pay itself back to a sportsman-level racer. No question there are durability gains for eztreme endurance applications though.
I have snagged them on installation :-D Problem being you won't know until you pull it out to check, and then you won't know again once you put it back in LOL!!

I just eliminated the ring all together. Problem solved! :-D

I may try them again down the road, but not for the 25+ dollar a piece price tag that Total Seal has on them. They think because their colored gold that they might actually be made of gold.

How much are you getting for a .043 mini-hook with a reduced radial section? Pro Series type?
 

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I've come to this conclusion, and being a ring engineer you'll probably balk at this statement, but I'm in the position right now that compression ring seal is way over-rated
Damn I couldn't agree more!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Monty you go with the flow, if we told you to wrap duct tape around the piston you would! :-D
 

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I dont go with the flow!! I used to gap my rings at exactly .034" on top and exactly .036 on the second.. I put some old rings in a motor that was honed a bunch of times and the ring gap went to .063" to .070" and I seen absolutly no difference in ET!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Is that the ring issue you called me on a while back? How did your gap grow so large? If the steel wore it that bad I would have chit myself..... Cant beat the PC479 rings!
 

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No the TS G2000 rings just flat out sucked for my combo.. them where the rings we talked about on the phone. When I dropped a rod at Stanton a couple years ago I used some really old hellfire rings that were made for a 4.155 bore.. I believe the bore was around 4.165 when I used them.. The gap was around .065".. Im sure ya have a formula to show exatcly how big the bore was at that time.. What is a PC479 ring??

Also what seems to work best on turbo motors? First and second rings.. Im looking at 1/16 - 1/16 rings...
 
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