[Mudtoy]

My kid brother bought a Patriot crate 383 from Summit a few years back. Project 69 Camaro build, got it going earlier this year and had fits making it idle. Had a brand new Quick Fuel 750, I got involved when he asked to borrow the carb off of my 69 Camaro 383 (600 Demon) to see if it made a difference. It did not.

The engine has now developed lifter noise (60 plus psi oil pressure) running 10-30 Castrol. My bro goes to adjust valves (intake with exhaust just open, exhaust with intake almost closed) and calls me up to say several lifters feel solid and are opening the valve rather than compress lifter. By the time I got there he had the intake off and lifters out. Sure enough, quite a few of the lifters are completely pumped up solid.

He called Howards up and was told those lifters will pump solid at 5psi and must be adjusted running??? Not sure how that will help if the lifters are not going to give at all.

Why are only some pumping up? I was able to compress the lifters with a vise by slowly pushing the oil out but feel like it will happen again the moment we reassemble. According to build sheet it has the correct seat pressure, I haven't checked geometry yet or seat pressure on head but am going to have a look today. Lift is around .560 BTW, total of about 300 miles on engine.

Any thoughts?

 

[Ron Clevenger]

Do as they said. Adjust with engine idling. Back off tell,you hear lifter noise. Then turn down about 3/4 turn. It will take engine a few seconds to smooth lifter out so be patient . One at a time.

 

[Geoff]

Some lifters just seal up better than others. That is what you are seeing.

 

[Mudtoy]

Like I said, I came into this one a little late. My bro had already pulled the intake, just kind of odd that some of the lifters are "squishy" and others are solid as hell. Geoff's comment makes sense but now what? New lifters and try again, I doubt my brother wants these back in the engine. As for Howard's suggestion that you have to adjust these running, If you lash them down 1/2 turn on initial install they should be good for a long damn time unless something is going south.

In fairness to the lifters, maybe the adjustment (Patriot ) was off from the git go, so maybe squeeze them all down and do the initial lash down again personally. Adjusting while running makes a hella mess!

 

[MN Hemi]

I’ve seen Howard’s lifters stick extended and compressed. I’m not sure if it’s the assembly lube they used or what, but it acted like glue. We had to pull an intake on the dyno, pull and heat the lifters with a propane torch to get some to spring back up from being stuck.

 

[70Camaro540]

Ive sent Howards ( morels ) back to Howards on warranty that were pumped up so solid they were never , ever going to go down again even with a 5 ton arbor press. They initially suggested adjusting them running etc. Soon as that cylinders rockers got past zero lash it would start popping like hell 'cause the valve was open. They replaced them after a month and 15 or so phone calls.

 

[Loganpressley]

Like I said, I came into this one a little late. My bro had already pulled the intake, just kind of odd that some of the lifters are "squishy" and others are solid as hell. Geoff's comment makes sense but now what? New lifters and try again, I doubt my brother wants these back in the engine. As for Howard's suggestion that you have to adjust these running, If you lash them down 1/2 turn on initial install they should be good for a long damn time unless something is going south.

In fairness to the lifters, maybe the adjustment (Patriot ) was off from the git go, so maybe squeeze them all down and do the initial lash down again personally. Adjusting while running makes a hella mess!

Are these lifters made by Morel?

 

[Mudtoy]

I’ve seen Howard’s lifters stick extended and compressed. I’m not sure if it’s the assembly lube they used or what, but it acted like glue. We had to pull an intake on the dyno, pull and heat the lifters with a propane torch to get some to spring back up from being stuck.

That's messed up!

Isn't Morel supposed to be the top of the heap?

Is there a brand some of you have had better luck with?

 

[novafornow]

Due to very good feed back, I am installing Johnson short travel lifters as soon as they arrive.

 

[CNC BLOCKS]

Due to very good feed back, I am installing Johnson short travel lifters as soon as they arrive.

smart move

 

[Topfun99]

I always just adjust hydraulic lifters after priming the engine. Once it's on the base circle, turn the adjuster will spinning the pushrod. It's easy to feel when you have zero clearance. Turn the adjuster 1/2-3/4 turn and lock down. Yes, it will open the valve but once it starts running it bleeds down.

It's always been easy except when you have one that won't pump up. That was the only time I had any problems.

 

[CNC BLOCKS]

I always just adjust hydraulic lifters after priming the engine. Once it's on the base circle, turn the adjuster will spinning the pushrod. It's easy to feel when you have zero clearance. Turn the adjuster 1/2-3/4 turn and lock down. Yes, it will open the valve but once it starts running it bleeds down.

It's always been easy except when you have one that won't pump up. That was the only time I had any problems.

Only problem with tuning 3/4 of a turn you do not have an anti pump up lifter. In the event of valve float you may have piston to valve contact.

What interesting the 5000 series Morel lifters built by Eaton for Morel they work fine at 1/8 to a 1/4 turn.


IMHO if a lifter is making noise at an 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn something is wrong with the lifters.

 

[Topfun99]

Only problem with tuning 3/4 of a turn you do not have an anti pump up lifter. In the event of valve float you may have piston to valve contact.

What interesting the 5000 series Morel lifters built by Eaton for Morel they work fine at 1/8 to a 1/4 turn.

IMHO if a lifter is making noise at an 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn something is wrong with the lifters.

Well, all I can say is Morel lifter instructions dictate the degrees of turn after "0" contact based on if you have aluminum heads or iron heads to compensate for the expansion when the engine heats up. The pre-load came out between 1/2-3/4 turn. I've been using the same technique with Ford OEM lifters also for 12 years. 3/4 turn is .037"with my 7/16" stud, .032" with a 3/8" stud and after the engine heats up those dimensions will get smaller.

I copied and pasted their instructions below:

You are now ready to tighten down on the adjuster using the following method:

a. It is important to know the thread pitch, in threads per inch, of the adjuster nut, because one complete turn of the nut will move a distance of one complete thread. Therefore, verify the thread pitch of the adjuster nut, because racing rocker manufacturers use different nut sizes and thread pitches.

b. If your adjuster nut is 7/16 x 20 threads per inch, then divide 1 inch by 20 threads per inch. One complete turn down on a 7/16 by 20 adjuster nut will move .050".

c. Next, divide .050" divide by 4 to calculate the distance for a quarter-turn of the adjuster nut (.050" / 4 = .0125").

d. For a 3/8 x 24 adjuster nut, the calculations are:
1" / 24 TPI = .042" per full turn and .042" / 4 = .0105" per quarter-turn.

e. Use the chart below to determine how many quarter-turns to tighten the adjuster nut after Zero-lash:
Cast Iron block and Cast Iron Head = .020" - .025"
Cast Iron block and Aluminum Head = .030" - .035"
Aluminum block and Aluminum Head = .045" - .050"

 

[CNC BLOCKS]

Well, all I can say is Morel lifter instructions dictate the degrees of turn after "0" contact based on if you have aluminum heads or iron heads to compensate for the expansion when the engine heats up. The pre-load came out between 1/2-3/4 turn. I've been using the same technique with Ford OEM lifters also for 12 years. 3/4 turn is .037"with my 7/16" stud, .032" with a 3/8" stud and after the engine heats up those dimensions will get smaller.

I copied and pasted their instructions below:

You are now ready to tighten down on the adjuster using the following method:

a. It is important to know the thread pitch, in threads per inch, of the adjuster nut, because one complete turn of the nut will move a distance of one complete thread. Therefore, verify the thread pitch of the adjuster nut, because racing rocker manufacturers use different nut sizes and thread pitches.

b. If your adjuster nut is 7/16 x 20 threads per inch, then divide 1 inch by 20 threads per inch. One complete turn down on a 7/16 by 20 adjuster nut will move .050".

c. Next, divide .050" divide by 4 to calculate the distance for a quarter-turn of the adjuster nut (.050" / 4 = .0125").

d. For a 3/8 x 24 adjuster nut, the calculations are:
1" / 24 TPI = .042" per full turn and .042" / 4 = .0105" per quarter-turn.

e. Use the chart below to determine how many quarter-turns to tighten the adjuster nut after Zero-lash:
Cast Iron block and Cast Iron Head = .020" - .025"
Cast Iron block and Aluminum Head = .030" - .035"
Aluminum block and Aluminum Head = .045" - .050"

Thank you

If those lifters are noisy at an 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn something is truly wrong.

I have dealt wit a lot of HYD roller and HYD. flat tappet lifters in my circle track and street builds I only go an 1/8 to a 1/4 of turn and GM on their crate engines recommend that.

In the racing world I like anti pump up lifters.

 

[MN Hemi]

That's messed up!

Isn't Morel supposed to be the top of the heap?

Is there a brand some of you have had better luck with?

After some other issues with hyd roller lifters I quit using them for the most part, especially if there is some spring pressure. Pretty shitty to watch lifters just bleed down as you roll the engine over. Several issues with hot restarts resulting in preignition due to the intake valve closing way early after bleed. Resulted in starter breakage. Installing solids totally took care of the problem.

Now, I use solid rollers on hyd roller profiles. Been using Crower and BAM and works great for me. Johnson makes a hyd roller that seems to be trouble free that several customers use. Then Black Mambas have an oil circuit I like but are limited in sizes at this time. I don’t do anything with .842” lifters.

 

[Topfun99]

Thank you

If those lifters are noisy at an 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn something is truly wrong.

I have dealt wit a lot of HYD roller and HYD. flat tappet lifters in my circle track and street builds I only go an 1/8 to a 1/4 of turn and GM on their crate engines recommend that.

In the racing world I like anti pump up lifters.

So what do you use to define "the racing world" - RPM, HP, cam lift/duration or...?

Not trying to be a smart ass, but trying to come to terms with why I've had limited problems using a roller cam, hydraulic cam combination not using anything but OEM lifters.

Is this a limitation for certain applications? I do run the car at the track regularly, is 6800-7000 rpm not enough to find problems?

 

[CNC BLOCKS]

So what do you use to define "the racing world" - RPM, HP, cam lift/duration or...?

Not trying to be a smart ass, but trying to come to terms with why I've had limited problems using a roller cam, hydraulic cam combination not using anything but OEM lifters.

Is this a limitation for certain applications? I do run the car at the track regularly, is 6800-7000 rpm not enough to find problems?

Do you build circle track engines and road race engines. To compare apples to apples ??



I don't think HP is a factor when it comes to valve float if so please enlighten me.

Circle track customers tend to over rev. Having an anti pump up lifter do save engines. IMHO

Thats why a GM crate engine valve adjustment is different from and OEM engine valve adjustment.


My customers can be brutal on their engines but they seem to live and win.

 

[Topfun99]

Do you build circle track engines and road race engines. To compare apples to apples ??

I don't think HP is a factor when it comes to valve float if so please enlighten me.

Circle track customers tend to over rev. Having an anti pump up lifter do save engines. IMHO

Thats why a GM crate engine valve adjustment is different from and OEM engine valve adjustment.

My customers can be brutal on their engines but they seem to live and win.

Reread my post. I never suggested HP was a factor related to valve float. You didn't answer my direct question but that's okay. I didn't realize this was a discussion about circle track or road race engines. But you did clarify that's the application you're basing your "racing" on.

Thank you.

I was basing my opinions on my experience with a street/strip car which is probably more inline with the application the OP and myself are involved with.

 

[CNC BLOCKS]

So what do you use to define "the racing world" - RPM, HP, cam lift/duration or...?

Not trying to be a smart ass, but trying to come to terms with why I've had limited problems using a roller cam, hydraulic cam combination not using anything but OEM lifters.

Is this a limitation for certain applications? I do run the car at the track regularly, is 6800-7000 rpm not enough to find problems?

I high lighted HP that was in your question.............


Big difference from what you build for engines and what I build.

 

[Topfun99]

I don't think HP is a factor when it comes to valve float if so please enlighten me.

I high lighted HP that was in your question.............

Big difference from what you build for engines and what I build.

AGAIN, show me where I directly associated HP with valve float. It wasn't done in the sentence where HP was highlighted.

Regarding the second highlighted section, yes, I think that's the point I was trying to make. I put together combinations that survive and win for what I do and you put together different combinations. I don't consider either superior to the other, they are different.

So we each have a legitimate reason to choose different components and adjust them differently.