[alpha]

I know a lot of people on here have dealt with and seen a lot of engine failures over the years. I figured this would be a good place to ask opinions on these failures. Thanks for any and all input :supz:

This is an import engine. Specifically a Mitsubishi Evolution VIII.

Two engine failures in two months. Below are the two engines and some details. The car is running on pump E85 fuel.

* Engine One (1)
- JE 10:1 pistons (standard wrist pins)
- Pauter rods
- Clevite bearings
- ARP L19 head studs
- ARP main studs
- Modified balance shaft
- Stock crank pulley
- OEM non turned crank
- OEM oil pump
- Brad Penn 30 grade break-in oil
- Brad Penn 20w50 grade oil

Multiple pulls at 38lbs of boost. Everything was fine until afterwards. Driving normally thirty minutes after tuning the engine started knocking. It ended up being number one rod bearings had completely spun, number one bent wrist pin and locked oil pump.

Duty cycle: 74%
Air:Fuel: If I remember correctly was 11:1
Air temp peak: 109*

* Engine Two (2)
- Different low mileage block
- Different low mileage crank
- Cleaned oil cooler
- JE 10:1 pistons (upgraded wrist pins)
- Manley Turbo Tuff rods
- ACL Race bearings
- ARP L19 head studs
- ARP main studs
- ATI crank pulley
- No balance shaft
- OEM non turned crank (52,000 miles)
- OEM oil pump
- Brad Penn 30 grade break-in oil
- Brad Penn 20w50 grade oil

Duty cycle: 75%
Air:Fuel: If I remember correctly was 11.5:1
Air temp peak: 79*

The second engine developed a slight knock after only two pulls on the street. The second engine at partial throttle / vacuum the knock sensors were very noisy and going into the knock map. Number one rod bearings were barely spun but rod wasn't discolored. Number two, three and four rods bearings were completely spun and the rods were discolored. A plug on the oil pump was also discolored as well.

* Setup
- Front face exhaust manifold
- Precision 6765 turbocharger
- Garrett intercooler
- 3" open downpipe
- AMS intake manifold
- Injector Dynamics 2200cc fuel injectors
- Bosch 044 (2) fuel pumps
- Weldon A2040 fuel pressure regulator
- Weldon fuel filter
- AEM EMS Version 1 standalone engine management system
- Brad Brooks crank trigger
- Spark Tech Non-CDi COP Systems
- NGK 8 heat range plugs
- Catch can (two -10 breathers off valve cover)
- Ferrea valve train
- HKS 272 camshafts

Both engines the plugs looked fine. No metal flakes. Didn't look to be hot.

 

[alpha]

More pictures

 

[$upernova]

Is the crank a cast crank? It looks as if so. 38 lbs of boost? OEM oil pump? How high are you spinning it? Block flex, crank flex? It's an import! You have your answer........

 

[alpha]

Is the crank a cast crank? It looks as if so. 38 lbs of boost? OEM oil pump? How high are you spinning it? Block flex, crank flex? It's an import! You have your answer........

Thanks. The crank is forged. Correct, 38lbs of boost. Brad new OEM oil pumps in both engines. The first engine saw 10,000rpm once or twice. 9400rpm numerous times. The second engine saw 9000rpm twice. The cam sensor and crank sensors looked fine in the logs so I doubt block or crank flex?

 

[$upernova]

I have to say your bearings look like not enough oil, oil pressure, wrong grade. With that kind of boost pushing on the pistons, wrist pins, rods, bearings, crank, oiling looks to be the problem.

 

[v8Eclipse89]

http://catalog.mahleclevite.com/bearing/

 

[v8Eclipse89]

i was looking on there and like nova said it looks like oil starvation

 

[Collinsautomotive]

its oil aeration damage. babit is overworked. gives the appearance of good oil pressure but underlubricates and undercools. The mitsubishi oil pan is a disaster and to top off the problems it pumps WAY to much oil into the valvecover area of the head.

To be honest for engines like this its almost better to go with a external wet sump pump and rework the oiling system from the bottom up. The stock oil pump and pan suck ass and this isn't the first time I have seen failures similar to this.

 

[Collinsautomotive]

Thanks. The crank is forged. Correct, 38lbs of boost. Brad new OEM oil pumps in both engines. The first engine saw 10,000rpm once or twice. 9400rpm numerous times. The second engine saw 9000rpm twice. The cam sensor and crank sensors looked fine in the logs so I doubt block or crank flex?

Oh that engine is moving around like a wet noodle. If you have proper clearances and oil recover and oil volume and oil type, you can cover the problem with more bearing clearnace to help the flex issues. won't solve the problems with controlling the oiling system properly though.

 

[Uncle Paul]

To get a connecting rod to turn colors on the cap (down stroke side) screams there is a problem with clearance and oil.

 

[Collinsautomotive]

To get a connecting rod to turn colors on the cap (down stroke side) screams there is a problem with clearance and oil.

Yes indeed. the problem is quality of lubrication. You can get oil pressure buts its typically 50% air at high rpm.

 

[Billyman]

What's the side clearance on the rods?

 

[Mike Beck]

Some of those rods remind me of a little miscue I had years ago when my oil pump pickup fell off thru the traps at 7800. Wasn't pretty! Engine initially locked-up. After it cooled for a few hours I could turn it over by hand (with no plugs in it) but I knew it was dead! Had a few rods that were nicely-colored like yours.............. A $15 part cost me $3000 that day.

Now, practically none of what I typed has a thing to do with your problem, except for the fact that you have an oiling issue for sure just as everyone else has already said. How to correct it is a whole 'nother issue, good luck!

 

[youngengines]

I'm with oiling too. I dont know anything about your engine, but could it just be not getting oil back to the pan fast enough? I had a customer with toyota 3tc mini stock engines. I freshened up one for him. He ran a local dirt track and all was fine. He went to a big dirt track and blew up. Tore #4 rod bearing up. I fixed it and he ran local, fine. Went back to the big track and boom, #4 rod bearing again. I got to looking harder (should have before). They had a oil pan with dual kickouts. The oil pump and pickup is made together, so in the corners the oil was running in the kickout (no trap door). We went with a pan with dual kickouts, and trap doors. It also holds more oil. He's ran the big track several times since, so far so good.

 

[Fisher-Racing]

Dont have any exp with inport stuff , but looking at the pics you damn sure have an oiling problem , how much bearing clearance did you have on the mains and rods , and was this a high vol. oil pump in this engine ?

 

[Collinsautomotive]

Some of those rods remind me of a little miscue I had years ago when my oil pump pickup fell off thru the traps at 7800. Wasn't pretty! Engine initially locked-up. After it cooled for a few hours I could turn it over by hand (with no plugs in it) but I knew it was dead! Had a few rods that were nicely-colored like yours.............. A $15 part cost me $3000 that day.

Now, practically none of what I typed has a thing to do with your problem, except for the fact that you have an oiling issue for sure just as everyone else has already said. How to correct it is a whole 'nother issue, good luck!

Revise the entire oiling system from top to bottom. from pan to valvecover and ditch the factory pump.I've had a few of these junk piles apart and the oiling system is horrific to say the least.

Great for a low rpm engine that needs to run for 100k but horriable for aeration, flow and priority as well as cooling.

 

[alpha]

Thanks for all the replies from everyone. I'm trying to find out what clearances were used and trying to get pictures of the mains as well.

 

[cepx111]

Wow, looks like your engine builder took you to the cleaners twice!

 

[corylee]

don't forget the trash that got in the turbo from the first disaster! you cleaned the cooler, but the turbo may be hurt as well.

 

[WVU454SS]

I've seen a number of DSM guys throw these engines together. Did you actually measure bearing clearances? How much oil are you running? A couple of friends that turn these 4Gs 10,500-11,000 usually run +1-1.5 quarts extra oil because 4G63s have such poor oil return characteristics.