E85 vs Methanol

1624 Views 35 Replies 19 Participants Last post by 10sec_rx7, 5 d ago

MoonMan

Discussion Starter · 12 d ago

Title says it all pretty much. Is the extra investment and hardware worth the extra power and lower temps that meth brings? Would straight ethanol behave the same or similar to methanol? Would flex fuel be a good solution?

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MoonMan

Discussion Starter · #2 · 12 d ago

If I do flex fuel I'd put the sensor on the return line since the way I'm thinking that the way I'd plumb this is to have two smaller tanks with the same sized pumps and have them feed to the heat exchanger and then to the fuel rails, and have a couple of crossover lines at the engine and the heat exchanger, altho the heat exchanger would also get check valves, to make sure both rails get fuel even if one pump is shut off because the flex fuel sensor tells the ECU that it's not straight methanol and do both pumps aren't needed, the pumps are going to be the Aeromotive 10 gpm units and this big block Chevy would require both it it were run on straight methanol because 3,000 horsepower

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LLLosingit

· #3 · 12 d ago

MoonMan said:
If I do flex fuel I'd put the sensor on the return line since the way I'm thinking that the way I'd plumb this is to have two smaller tanks with the same sized pumps and have them feed to the heat exchanger and then to the fuel rails,nol because 3,000 horsepower

Why are you feeding a heat exchanger with fuel ? I'm trying to understand what you're saying but your post is very hard to understand.

camarols1

· #4 · 12 d ago

Ethanol and methanol are totally different animals.
For 3,000hp, I'd absolutely run methanol for many reasons.
Largely due to methanol being much more detonation resistant than Ethanol, especially if you're off on the tune.
There's no flex fuel sensor that will differentiate between methanol and ethanol.
If you street drive, just run a small set of injectors and separate fuel system for pump fuel.
Also, you'll need a 20+ gallon pump and big ass injectors for that much hp.
I'd strongly suggest finding a tuner that's done a similar combo and let him spec everything out as a package. Mistakes are expensive at this level.
Good luck with the build.

MoonMan

Discussion Starter · #5 · 12 d ago

LLLosingit said:
Why are you feeding a heat exchanger with fuel ? I'm trying to understand what you're saying but your post is very hard to understand.

I mean it'd be a water to fuel heat exchanger, not that it'd be fuel to oil

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MoonMan

Discussion Starter · #6 · 12 d ago

camarols1 said:
Ethanol and methanol are totally different animals.
For 3,000hp, I'd absolutely run methanol for many reasons.
Largely due to methanol being much more detonation resistant than Ethanol, especially if you're off on the tune.
There's no flex fuel sensor that will differentiate between methanol and ethanol.
If you street drive, just run a small set of injectors and separate fuel system for pump fuel.
Also, you'll need a 20+ gallon pump and big ass injectors for that much hp.
I'd strongly suggest finding a tuner that's done a similar combo and let him spec everything out as a package. Mistakes are expensive at this level.
Good luck with the build.

The injectors I've gone with are a bit oversized for E85 so they'd probably be fine with methanol if I turn up fuel pressure a bit.

The setup for meth that I'm thinking is to have two tanks each with their own 10 gpm pump with a check valve on the pickup side, to prevent loss of prime, then the fuel filter on the outlet of the pump, then a check valve on each feed line before the two tee fittings for crossover, then the heat exchanger and a crossover line at the front and rear of the fuel rails, then a single yuuuge return line that goes first to the heat exchanger and then to the tanks. I'll post a sketch of what I mean later when I get a chance to clarify because I imagine that's a bit garbled

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TurboII

· #7 · 12 d ago

For that HP level go methanol without question. No fuel heat exchanger needed. No way I would ever run electric pumps on a 3000HP engine. Waterman, Rage, Aeromotive, Enderle all make good pumps that are very dependable. Historically electric pumps don't like the high fuel pressure required for modern race injectors like Billet Atomizer that start at 90psi base and increase pound for pound with boost pressure. By the time you buy all the pumps, controllers, etc the single mechanical pump is cheaper and rock solid reliable. My preference is a cable drive off the tail of the dry sump pump and pump/cell at the rear unless the cell is in front then cam drive, belt drive or drive off tail of dry sump pump are all okay. Driving off the dry sump pump has a built in safety advantage so if you lose the dry sump belt for whatever reason the fuel pressure instantly goes to zero and engine stops running before it can go lean or hurt the bottom end. Just my $0.02

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MoonMan

Discussion Starter · #8 · 12 d ago

MoonMan said:
The injectors I've gone with are a bit oversized for E85 so they'd probably be fine with methanol if I turn up fuel pressure a bit.

The setup for meth that I'm thinking is to have two tanks each with their own 10 gpm pump with a check valve on the pickup side, to prevent loss of prime, then the fuel filter on the outlet of the pump, then a check valve on each feed line before the two tee fittings for crossover, then the heat exchanger and a crossover line at the front and rear of the fuel rails, then a single yuuuge return line that goes first to the heat exchanger and then to the tanks. I'll post a sketch of what I mean later when I get a chance to clarify because I imagine that's a bit garbled

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Here's what I'm thinking of to clarify what I mean. To ensure this runs well regardless of if one pump is on or not based on what the flex fuel sensor tells the ECU I'd have the crossover line and check valves at the outlet of the fuel filters along with crossovers at the fuel rails

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MoonMan

Discussion Starter · #9 · 12 d ago

TurboII said:
For that HP level go methanol without question. No fuel heat exchanger needed. No way I would ever run electric pumps on a 3000HP engine. Waterman, Rage, Aeromotive, Enderle all make good pumps that are very dependable. Historically electric pumps don't like the high fuel pressure required for modern race injectors like Billet Atomizer that start at 90psi base and increase pound for pound with boost pressure. By the time you buy all the pumps, controllers, etc the single mechanical pump is cheaper and rock solid reliable. My preference is a cable drive off the tail of the dry sump pump and pump/cell at the rear unless the cell is in front then cam drive, belt drive or drive off tail of dry sump pump are all okay. Driving off the dry sump pump has a built in safety advantage so if you lose the dry sump belt for whatever reason the fuel pressure instantly goes to zero and engine stops running before it can go lean or hurt the bottom end. Just my $0.02

The Aeromotovie 10 gpm pump is capable of 3000 horsepower depending on which fuel you use, I'm going to need to two though because methanol requires absolutely retarded flow rates, and they come with the needed controller for operation. As for making sure the engine doesn't get hurt one of the first things I'm going to do when setting up the ECU is to set it so it shuts off immediately if oil pressure or fuel pressure reaches 0 psi, coolant temp gets too high for too long, and possibly if coolant flow reaches 0 because that'd indicate a hose blew and coolant is going everywhere it shouldn't

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stevieturbo

· #10 · 12 d ago

MoonMan said:
I mean it'd be a water to fuel heat exchanger, not that it'd be fuel to oil

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To serve what purpose ?

MoonMan

Discussion Starter · #11 · 12 d ago

stevieturbo said:
To serve what purpose ?

To keep the fuel from getting hot enough that it causes the fuel pump to vapor lock during events like Rocky Mountain Race and similar events

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TurboII

· #12 · 12 d ago

IMHO you will live to regret the decision to run electric pumps if the combo is actually capable of 3K HP. If you are trying to build reliability into the combo for Drag And Drive events that ain't the way. In many cases vapor lock can be avoided by careful planning of the fuel system component locations, heat wrap and most importantly maintaining pressure so the fuel can't boil in the lines. Either a rear mounted cell and pump, a small electric primer pump (for mechanical) or a low PSI bypass regulator on the fuel pod so it stays pressurized when cruising down the highway or engine is shut down for brief periods. The electric pumps are getting better but they are not equal to a quality mechanical pump like a Waterman. If it comes with an actual flow bench sheet that shows it was flow tested at 100psi minimum and equals the 10GPM rating I would love to see it. The other reason myself and others have questioned the fuel heat exchanger is because we run mechanical pumps and they do not add any significant amount of heat into the fuel. The mechanical pumps have a built-in controller, when the engine is idling or cruising at low RPM the pump is at low RPM too. Simple == Reliable

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Black_Sunshine_99

· #13 · 12 d ago

Steve Morris has this setup dialed, his dual fuel setup is amazing in Tom Bailey's Camaro or Cleetus's El Camino.
I'd be find out how he does it and copy that recipe.

Reactions: 2

Pro Stock John

· #14 · 12 d ago (Edited)

Are you asking if you should run methanol as your fuel to make 3000HP?

Vs. E85?

I don't think you'll find anyone using E85 to make 3000HP. Before that power level they already changed to alchohol.

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Third Gen Racer

· #15 · 12 d ago

At 3000hp M1 no question. If it’s drag and drive dual fuel with two separate systems. Gas and M1 completely separate. It can be set up in Holley to drive around town or in the pits, anything out of boost on gas. And when it goes positive or at say 5 pounds transition to M1.

If you’re dead set on your two cells with one return you’re going to need a balance line between them.

Reactions: 2

MoonMan

Discussion Starter · #16 · 12 d ago

TurboII said:
IMHO you will live to regret the decision to run electric pumps if the combo is actually capable of 3K HP. If you are trying to build reliability into the combo for Drag And Drive events that ain't the way. In many cases vapor lock can be avoided by careful planning of the fuel system component locations, heat wrap and most importantly maintaining pressure so the fuel can't boil in the lines. Either a rear mounted cell and pump, a small electric primer pump (for mechanical) or a low PSI bypass regulator on the fuel pod so it stays pressurized when cruising down the highway or engine is shut down for brief periods. The electric pumps are getting better but they are not equal to a quality mechanical pump like a Waterman. If it comes with an actual flow bench sheet that shows it was flow tested at 100psi minimum and equals the 10GPM rating I would love to see it. The other reason myself and others have questioned the fuel heat exchanger is because we run mechanical pumps and they do not add any significant amount of heat into the fuel. The mechanical pumps have a built-in controller, when the engine is idling or cruising at low RPM the pump is at low RPM too. Simple == Reliable

The concern that warrants the heat exchanger, imo, isn't the pumps adding heat to the fuel, it's the fuel picking up heat from the engine and the lines since it's going to be a return type system. As for maintaining pressure, the pumps are going to be in-tank units with a large sized hose between the pump inlet and the in-tank screens, which I'm thinking I'll have one at each corner of the tank that feed to the in-tank suction hose

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MoonMan

Discussion Starter · #17 · 12 d ago

Third Gen Racer said:
At 3000hp M1 no question. If it’s drag and drive dual fuel with two separate systems. Gas and M1 completely separate. It can be set up in Holley to drive around town or in the pits, anything out of boost on gas. And when it goes positive or at say 5 pounds transition to M1.

If you’re dead set on your two cells with one return you’re going to need a balance line between them.

Two cells seems to be the best way I've thought up to package that setup with the heat exchanger, which I'd still end up running regardless because I may go all wheel drive if the transmission manufacturer ever releases the all wheel drive variant because it's either run lines all the way back to the engine bay or put the oil and trans cooler up front and end up running more lines all the way forward. I know I'd need a balance line for two cells, every semi with dual tanks has had balancing lines since they've existed and I've been making my living behind the wheel for years now

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AnalogtoDigital

· #18 · 11 d ago

Devin Vanderhoof has a nice dual fuel setup in his Vert, though he uses a cable drive off the back of his dry sump pump for the M1 system..

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camarols1

· #19 · 11 d ago

There's a lot of good info in here from some very seasoned fast guys.
Nobody runs electric pumps at that power level, period.
Please do yourself a favor and listen to their advice. Otherwise, you'll be buying pistons by the pallet......

Reactions: 2

MoonMan

Discussion Starter · #20 · 11 d ago

A cam driven fuel pump won't work for this I think, I'm going to be running a timing cover with a provision for a cam position sensor instead of a cam sync distributor for the ECU, can the Dailey Engineering pump also drive a pump?

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