E-85 AND WATER TO AIR INNERCOOLER
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It doesn't have the same cooling effect as methanol but you could probably get away without an intercooler. Keep in mind methanol runs at an a/f of about 3.5:1 and ethanol might run around 9:1. There's a lot more mass with methanol to help take the heat out.
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I once did the math accounting for the heat of vaporization (cooling effect) of E85 at a typical air fuel ratio and it was (on paper) pretty impressive (not as far from Methanol as one might expect) but have not run it without an intercooler. I believe a guy could run a considerable amount of boost (16-18psi, maybe more) without an intercooler provided the compression isn't too high.
-Chris
-Chris
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to answer your question better i think we need more info.the different applications such as EFI,blow thru,draw thru carb,
in the first 2 cases i think an intercooler would help with a turbo as lower temps meen more HP surpassing the E-85 effects.
in the first 2 cases i think an intercooler would help with a turbo as lower temps meen more HP surpassing the E-85 effects.
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i bet at 15/20 lbs your intake air temp will be around 200*F and up to 30lbs as much as 250 or more.cooling it befor the fuel mix i think would be a good idea.
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Norm- At the amount of hp you are going to be making it is not whether you can do without it is why would you. I am assuming this is mostly a drag car? If you want more hp and way less chance of detonation go air to water and use ice( a lot of ice, you will probably melt like 50 lbs on a pass when it is cranked up. just guessing, there are plenty of guys on here that can tell you how much). The hp is not a small number your dealing with for every 10 degrees you lower the intake air temp you gain roughly 1 % hp . With that big of set up your looking at a pretty big number.
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I run in a heads up local 1/8th mile 8.5" tire class where I'm limited to only a cast wheel 76mm turbo. I run E85 with EFI and a A2W making ~1000rwhp. My 76 makes as much boost as it can every pass down the track. I've never measured turbo outlet temps..but I'm sure they are 200+*......intake air temps after the a2w are ~50* at the start...~80* at the end of a pass with ice water being used. For a street car e85 efi combo a a2w isn't needed...but it lets you get the max out of your combo hp/timing wise and gives you some tuning room insurance. On a carb e85 blow through a a2w isn't really needed at all unless your going for max effort.
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Nice times. What's the combo?
I'm considering ditching my a/a intercooler to make room for a front cell...
I think if the tune is solid, an intercooler isn't mandatory on an alcohol engine. It can't hurt you though unless it becomes a restriction as you turn up the power.
I'm considering ditching my a/a intercooler to make room for a front cell...
I think if the tune is solid, an intercooler isn't mandatory on an alcohol engine. It can't hurt you though unless it becomes a restriction as you turn up the power.
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I run a large A/W cooler on my set up with E85 pump. I do NOT run ice in my tank, just straight water. I did try icing it a couple times, but from my testing the fuel did not vaporize very well at the lower temps. With straight water I have not seen the temps get over 100 even on the 3 rd pass in 90 degree heat. I have yet to try it without the cooler, but I will some time after I get more testing done. On my set up I have been [email protected] at 25 psi of boost at 3500lbs. I would not be afraid to run it with no cooler in the low 20's. I know Chris Bishir has lots of testing and passes both with and without a cooler. Maybe he will chime in.
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Depending on the motor combo it is easily possible to run high psi without a cooler. I run e-98 twin turbo BBC no intercooler been 35psi with IAT's around 260-270 on the big end zero issues been running it for 3 years.
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He needs one of my IC's
Shameless plug sorry.
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I told him that. But he's a little short on time for Drag week (spun some main bearings during testing) so he's got his hands full getting that fixed. If he had more time to mock up for a new cooler he would have given you a call.He needs one of my IC's
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anyone reading this for info just get an a2w and save the head ache! I tried it this year with a 540 bbc and a 118 no intercooler.. I got 5 passes all year and I can show you a junk set of heads and pistons and a pile of head gaskets.. part of it was my tuning, I got timing happy, but it is very touchy so why mess with it? with all the money you have in your car chunk out the change and buy an a2w and make more power safer. I read all these threads when I decided to go without an a2w and now I kick myself because it cost me way more money in engine parts, and guess what im doing now? An A2W.. there are a few guys doing really well without one on e85, but its they are drinking unicorn blood or something because they are doing something magic. good luck!!
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lkni3010 speaks the truth.
I have been running non-intercooled E85 Turbo EFI set up for 5 years now. Its mainly a street car....but sees the track 3-4 times a year.
Its a 418" SBF with a 84mm FI Borg Turbo. I usually set it at 20psi...but have went as high as 24. The car runs great.....but you have to very careful with timing.
I have NGK 10's, gapped at .018....the motor is 10:1 compression....the inlet temp sensor pegs within a second of a typical run at 255 degrees.....so who knows what it actually gets to.
Timing must be very conservative. I tried to run upwards of 19-20 on 20psi and it melted a piston.....I backed it down to 17 and it lifted a gasket. Now at 14-15 its pretty reliable.
I choose the non-intercooler set up because I didn't want the intercooler packaging clogging up my radiator and I wanted a more clean/easy to maintain set up. I know a good A/A would help in performance and an A/W may help even more.....but I really like the way this is all self contained.
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I have been running non-intercooled E85 Turbo EFI set up for 5 years now. Its mainly a street car....but sees the track 3-4 times a year.
Its a 418" SBF with a 84mm FI Borg Turbo. I usually set it at 20psi...but have went as high as 24. The car runs great.....but you have to very careful with timing.
I have NGK 10's, gapped at .018....the motor is 10:1 compression....the inlet temp sensor pegs within a second of a typical run at 255 degrees.....so who knows what it actually gets to.
Timing must be very conservative. I tried to run upwards of 19-20 on 20psi and it melted a piston.....I backed it down to 17 and it lifted a gasket. Now at 14-15 its pretty reliable.
I choose the non-intercooler set up because I didn't want the intercooler packaging clogging up my radiator and I wanted a more clean/easy to maintain set up. I know a good A/A would help in performance and an A/W may help even more.....but I really like the way this is all self contained.
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Kind of bringing this back. But has anyone had issues with a a2w getting TOO cold? I have a f1x setup running 30psi on e85. I installed a air to water on it and I started noticing that every time I iced the tank the car would become real sluggish. (Roughly high 40° starting iat temp). Someone mentioned to me that it might be too cold for the ethanol to "flash off" so it wasn't burning properly. I have since removed the air to water and have a very large air to air going on it. Just wondering if anyone has seen this?
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