Yellow Bullet Forums banner
1 - 20 of 22 Posts

Ā·
Registered
Joined
Ā·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi everyone,
Im building my first drysump engine and is experiencing some problemsā€¦ wonder if there are someone inhere that can guide me in the right directionā€¦
I have a few routes that i think could lead to the problem, but i will give you the blank sheet so you can make assumptions for yourselvesšŸ˜Š

Problem is->
Oilpressure is fading from the bypass valve pressure 90psi at mid rpmā€¦ and gradualy down to 40 ish psi at 7000rpm (95 degressC oil temp)

It have good oil pressure 50psi at idle (1300 rpm)

Tried to measure pressure before the oilfilter, and i saw 12 psi higher pressure on the dyno run, i have ordered a KN 1003 filter to see if that improves the flow, but i would still like to see the presure even higher

First dyno session was on 10w-60 oil where i was suspecting the feed hose was collapsing and there fore causing the pressure to fallā€¦. I got back home and installed inner springs in all vaccum and feed hoses, and ran 5w-50 to see if that helpedā€¦. Feel like it was a bit better second dybo day, but still no where near the 10 psi/1000 rpm rule

Let me hear what you think?

Info:
Pro drift spec BMW E92 M60B40 4.0 v8 quadcam full aluminium engine turbocharged. Hp goal 700-800 crank hp 1000+ nm 7500 max rpm..

Drysump setup out of a Aqilia m60 racecar. Have tried to run both 10-60 and 5-50 oil
Pump drive ratio 1.2 (seems low to me)
1 pressure stage, 2 scavenge stages.
Drysump tank out of a nascar, sitting in the rear seat, holding 12 quarts of oil
-16 to the flywheel, then 3 feet -12 to the pump (pump have -12 inlet size)
-10 to oilfilter -10 to engineblock
-10 from sump to scavange
-12 from pump to air/warter heat exchanger
-12 to oiltankā€¦. Scavance hoses + suction hoses from tank to pressure stage have the Earls internal spring fitted so it does not collapse from vaccumā€¦
Best regards!
Wheel Tire Vehicle Automotive tire Automotive lighting
Automotive tire Motor vehicle Tread Automotive design Rim
Wheel Car Tire Vehicle Vehicle registration plate
Tire Wheel Automotive tire Motor vehicle Vehicle
 

Ā·
Registered
Joined
Ā·
367 Posts
Did you keep an eye on the oil level in the tank?
 

Ā·
Registered
Joined
Ā·
2,054 Posts
I have been running a dry sump for many years, all BBC large ci.
Been around the bus with the lightweight hose, collapsing. Add a spring, now the hose becomes impossible to clean properly, and it reduces the effective inside diameter of the hose, and causes turbulence. I just use the braided stainless hose on scavenge and pressure. Screw the lightweight crap. There is no gain.
You dont list the size of the stages, but in your case you say your scavenge hose is #10, now add a coil and it becomes smaller. And between whatever you pressure stage is and the amount of restriction you may not be able to flow enough oil to overcome.
Most configurations are #12 scavenge, #12 pressure, #16 return to tank, at least 50% of crank speed for pump. I run 63% with mine.
Coolers are a restriction. I have seen a pair of oil to water coolers plumbed in series eat 30-40 psi and about 5-8 less with them plumbed in parallel and all the fittings really blended.
Engine was dynoed with only the remote filter mount and filter and had 70+ psi on dyno, lost a ton with coolers, lines and fittings connected. Had to pull back out and raise bypass. This was 14 qt wet, but still shows that the coolers were a restriction.
Filter can be a restriction as well, a "stock" OE type filter is not made to flow volume as the micron rating is small vs a racing filter such as wix or moroso. The trade off is less filtering ability.
Personally I would ditch the adapted pump and contact one of the pump manufacturers and get a proper recommendation on what size pressure stage and scavenge to use. Pat @ Peterson is usually lurking around on the forums here, he should weigh in. His screen name is Haberkorn, maybe make a thread to him.
 

Ā·
Registered
Joined
Ā·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I have been running a dry sump for many years, all BBC large ci.
Been around the bus with the lightweight hose, collapsing. Add a spring, now the hose becomes impossible to clean properly, and it reduces the effective inside diameter of the hose, and causes turbulence. I just use the braided stainless hose on scavenge and pressure. Screw the lightweight crap. There is no gain.
You dont list the size of the stages, but in your case you say your scavenge hose is #10, now add a coil and it becomes smaller. And between whatever you pressure stage is and the amount of restriction you may not be able to flow enough oil to overcome.
Most configurations are #12 scavenge, #12 pressure, #16 return to tank, at least 50% of crank speed for pump. I run 63% with mine.
Coolers are a restriction. I have seen a pair of oil to water coolers plumbed in series eat 30-40 psi and about 5-8 less with them plumbed in parallel and all the fittings really blended.
Engine was dynoed with only the remote filter mount and filter and had 70+ psi on dyno, lost a ton with coolers, lines and fittings connected. Had to pull back out and raise bypass. This was 14 qt wet, but still shows that the coolers were a restriction.
Filter can be a restriction as well, a "stock" OE type filter is not made to flow volume as the micron rating is small vs a racing filter such as wix or moroso. The trade off is less filtering ability.
Personally I would ditch the adapted pump and contact one of the pump manufacturers and get a proper recommendation on what size pressure stage and scavenge to use. Pat @ Peterson is usually lurking around on the forums here, he should weigh in. His screen name is Haberkorn, maybe make a thread to him.
Thanks a lot for the input, very interesting reading!

I have the cooler plumbed on the return line, so it wornt restrict flow on the pressure side in my opinionā€¦. Guess it will be a flow issue, another thing i was wondering is what if the pump is spinning to fast? Will it cause issues? Cavitation?
With the ratio arround 1.2 its driven at 83 pct engine speed witch seems high i think?
It was used in the Aquillia racing series, so i thought it was a well designed system, and did not think too much about it when i installed it
 

Ā·
T/S 368E
Joined
Ā·
37,571 Posts
.


I run mine at 57% and fill tank 3/4th.
You have a long way to draw from.


.
 

Ā·
Registered
Joined
Ā·
2,054 Posts
Having the cooler on the return is a no, It is not under pressure, it has air in it and having a cooler for the returning oil to fight will limit refilling the tank properly, much the same as scavenge hoses collapsing will limit oil returning. The only thing to be on a return would be maybe a half an Oberg to filter the oil going back to the tank.
Too fast will cavitate the oil.
Probably 50-60% of engine speed at the operating rpm, but engine stroke and pan configuration will have a lot to do with that. Seek expert help for that.
 

Ā·
Registered
Joined
Ā·
45 Posts
Having the cooler on the return is a no, It is not under pressure, it has air in it and having a cooler for the returning oil to fight will limit refilling the tank properly, much the same as scavenge hoses collapsing will limit oil returning. The only thing to be on a return would be maybe a half an Oberg to filter the oil going back to the tank.
Too fast will cavitate the oil.
Probably 50-60% of engine speed at the operating rpm, but engine stroke and pan configuration will have a lot to do with that. Seek expert help for that.
Hi everyone,
Im building my first drysump engine and is experiencing some problemsā€¦ wonder if there are someone inhere that can guide me in the right directionā€¦
I have a few routes that i think could lead to the problem, but i will give you the blank sheet so you can make assumptions for yourselvesšŸ˜Š

Problem is->
Oilpressure is fading from the bypass valve pressure 90psi at mid rpmā€¦ and gradualy down to 40 ish psi at 7000rpm (95 degressC oil temp)

It have good oil pressure 50psi at idle (1300 rpm)

Tried to measure pressure before the oilfilter, and i saw 12 psi higher pressure on the dyno run, i have ordered a KN 1003 filter to see if that improves the flow, but i would still like to see the presure even higher

First dyno session was on 10w-60 oil where i was suspecting the feed hose was collapsing and there fore causing the pressure to fallā€¦. I got back home and installed inner springs in all vaccum and feed hoses, and ran 5w-50 to see if that helpedā€¦. Feel like it was a bit better second dybo day, but still no where near the 10 psi/1000 rpm rule

Let me hear what you think?

Info:
Pro drift spec BMW E92 M60B40 4.0 v8 quadcam full aluminium engine turbocharged. Hp goal 700-800 crank hp 1000+ nm 7500 max rpm..

Drysump setup out of a Aqilia m60 racecar. Have tried to run both 10-60 and 5-50 oil
Pump drive ratio 1.2 (seems low to me)
1 pressure stage, 2 scavenge stages.
Drysump tank out of a nascar, sitting in the rear seat, holding 12 quarts of oil
-16 to the flywheel, then 3 feet -12 to the pump (pump have -12 inlet size)
-10 to oilfilter -10 to engineblock
-10 from sump to scavange
-12 from pump to air/warter heat exchanger
-12 to oiltankā€¦. Scavance hoses + suction hoses from tank to pressure stage have the Earls internal spring fitted so it does not collapse from vaccumā€¦
Best regards!
View attachment 319078 View attachment 319079 View attachment 319080 View attachment 319081
I think the tank is WAY too far from the pump. You only have atmosphere pressure to get the oil to the pump. Pumps do NOT suck. No pump likes any suction restriction, and the distance is the restriction. Temporarily move the tank, and I wager your problem is gone.

RIP
 

Ā·
Registered
Joined
Ā·
498 Posts
I don't think the distance is your problem , they run them about the same distance or more in cup cars and DIRT modifieds. I don't like the step on your feed line,can you go -16 the whole way and change the fitting in the pump? Whatever you have as an adapter between the -12 and -16 is definitely a restriction but I'm not convinced that's the whole problem either. Have you done a clean shut off at RPM? You know, like a plug check. Then you could check how much oil is in the tank and how much is in the engine. If there is a ton of oil in the engine you have an oil pan design problem or oil return restriction.
 

Ā·
Registered
Joined
Ā·
3,178 Posts
can you make a few dyno pulls & watch the oil level in the tank during the pulls? Watch the level & see how the oil looks coming into the tank. You could have air bubbles in the oil on the return side.
 
  • Like
Reactions: blykins

Ā·
Registered
Joined
Ā·
367 Posts
can you make a few dyno pulls & watch the oil level in the tank during the pulls? Watch the level & see how the oil looks coming into the tank. You could have air bubbles in the oil on the return side.
I always have to add when I get into the dyno cell and the engine is running.
 

Ā·
Registered
Various parts and pieces that kinda run.
Joined
Ā·
31 Posts
Have you been watching the crankcase vacuum during the runs/pulls? The oil pressure gauge reads pressure as measured against atmospheric pressure. As vacuum increases in the crankcase the gauge will read lower. The engine still has the same amount of oil pressure and flow but you can't see it on the gauge. Think of it like this. If you had your engine on the stand not running with the oil pressure gauge hooked up and then pulled vacuum in the crankcase the gauge would turn backwards to read negative if there weren't a stop pin under the needle. The only way to get a true reading would be to have a totally sealed gauge with a reference tube connected to the crankcase. I don't know of anyone doing this. You can calculate the real pressure by converting vacuum to psi and adding it to your gauge reading.
 

Ā·
Registered
Joined
Ā·
6,218 Posts
I'd be Really surprised if that little pump is property evacuating that engine, especially with a cooler mounted on the return side.....let alone creating any depression!
 
  • Like
Reactions: haberkorn

Ā·
Registered
Joined
Ā·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Hi again everyone, sorry for the late reply, but i have just fitted the new parts, and had a chance to test some of your ideas out.
really apriciate you all taking your time to help me out here! I think all of you is right in your thoughts, but i have choosen the ones that made most sence for me, some parts aint ideal, but im limmited to spacing ect.
here is what i done, and what i learned,
Some problems diaapeared, some still persist :)

Earlier problems:
Fading oilpressure at high rpm (oil bypass at 7 bar, fading to 3.8 on a power pull, gets worse the higher the oil temp gets.
(later diagnosed as fading oilpressure at sustained high rpm even down to 5000 rpm for approx 5 seconds.
solution:
I changed the -16 to -12 stepdown at the flywheel to a -16 all the way to the pump where i use a -12 ot -16 adapter.
Result:
Oil pressure is now stable at high rpm, and stays on the pressure relif valve setting all the way out in rpm, and even for sustained periods at 6-7000 rpm, so i consider the pressure fading problem DEALT WITH, THANK YOU GUYS!

Another problem occured, eventhough it might have been there allway. at the first dyno session it was dark outside and i did not checked for smoke from the exhaust. but at the second dyno day i saw excessive oil smoke on the roll down from the pulls, it must be the valve stem seals i thought (Not any smoke while on boost, but massive at engine breaking)
Oil is deffinatly coming from the intake valves, but not all of them, i checked with a camera trough the sparkplug hole, and could see the cylinder looked wet, and the valves also, but 3 of the 8 cylinders vere all clean
heads are fresh off valve job and stem seals but i still suspected something to be wrong. but diceted i would have to figure out my oil pressure problems first. but now i belive the scavange side might add to the problem, and might be the cause....

and i might add, the crank case pressure was deffinatly positive at pulls, even throwing out oil!
deffenatly not any vaccum, not at any rpm!

i decided to go on the lead from you guys with the restrictive scavange side of the story.
i changed the hoses from -12 to -16 but still use -12 to -16 adapters on the oilcooler, pump, and oil tank, as it have theese inlets.

Result, it pulls a but of vaccum , especially when the oil is cold to mid temp! but not a high vaccum. at hot oil and high rpm it makes positive pressure still...
Car still smokes ALOT at sustained high rpm.
i decided to keep the engine at high rpm for 10 seconds and do a hard shutoff to check if there was any oil in the pan
5 LITTERS CAME OUT! :O

I poured it back in the tank, and used a -16 connector to bypass the oilcooler on the return line and do i all again
Result: now there is defenatly vaccum pressent, not much, but it pulls vaccum at high rpm also now.
Car still smokes ALOT at sustained high rpm.
Did the hard shutoff again, but there were still 3.5 litters present in the pan, better but not good! cant imiagine what kind of damage that oil will do to the pistons if i go on a track and apply gforces to it! :O

what do you guys think?
is the scavange side still to restrictive?
what would be the next step?

Best regards!

Motor vehicle Automotive lighting Automotive tire Automotive design Automotive fuel system
 

Attachments

Ā·
Registered
Joined
Ā·
6,547 Posts
Would NOT run an oil cooler on the suction side of the pump. That is a massive restriction with the relatively low suction pressure. Should be on the pressure side ONLY.
 

Ā·
Registered
Joined
Ā·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
And that is a problem!!
A cooler is a restriction, and it does not belong on the return side. At most, a 60 micron Oberg filter is ok, but not a damn cooler. Coolers belong on the pressure side.
I get that, at the beginning of the project i did the rechearch and saw a lot of guys used it on the rerurn, and it made better sence for me to use it thereā€¦
But i have tryed to bypass it, and there is still a problem somewherešŸ¤”
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top