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Discussion Starter #1
I have to build myself a dry sump pan this winter for my new motor and i would like it to be as good as it can be.
I would like some advise on the design and if possible the reason for doing it that way. Pics would be great to.
I have been looking at a lot of pans lately and they are all so different in design that it makes me unsure of how i i want my design.
Is there power in the pans with the dividers that come all the way up to the cap?
Do you really need a big kick out?
A lot of new pans do not have screen on the passenger side of the pan but rather a full sheet metal U shape with a cut out to scavenge at the top or at the bottom, and they do not have any kick out at all. I know this kind is for Nascar and probably for clearance reasons.
So if you have some knowledge of oil pan design i would really appreciate some help on the design.
The pump i am using is a 6 stage Dailey.
 

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Have you talked to Bill Dailey about his billet pans? Just curious I am running his six stage pump also and haven't talked to anyone who has run his billet pan.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
No, not about his pans, only the pump, and i bought it used. He was very helpful on the pump and i would like to talk to him on pan design but i felt it would be kind of a shitty move considering i am going to build my own pan.
I know a few people with his pans and they say they are nice, but they have no other experiences with dry sump pans.So all they can say is the are nice.
 

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His billet pans are a very different design compared to every other dry sump pan I have seen. They have no kickout and the bottom of the pan follows the crank very closely, very little volume in the pan. I am using a Williams divided pan and I'm very happy with it but would like to talk to someone who has run a dailey billet pan.
 

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Having not really seen a Dailey pan, I can only speculate, but it sounds very similar to the design developed by Ilmor for Penski in the late '90s. This design has been refined over the last decade, and is used by all Cup teams. It was first used, as mentioned, for ground clearance allowing suspension travel to maximize aero. When Nascar mandated "The Car" design (especially the maximum static front valance height), this eliminated allot of front end suspension travel, and the need of added clearance. Having more room available, we went back to testing the old tried and true "Volume" design. We found that a properly designed small enclosure trumped the old stuff both in both power and efficiency. (they seem to go hand in hand, imagine that! LOL).

I do know that this reduced volume can cause a few issues that need to be addressed in certain applications but............

That's about as far as I can elaborate.
 

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Warp Speed, can you expand on "I do know that this reduced volume can cause a few issues that need to be addressed in certain applications but....." I have an Ilmor style pan from a Penske Busch motor going into a drag race application. Anything I need to be concerned with? Thanks.
 

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Is this for an odd ball application that nobody makes??

If it was me, I would contact some of the friendlier nhra P/S teams and see if they will let you see what they use.
I would imagine they use the latest and greatest design that will work in most applications??

.
 

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Warp Speed, can you expand on "I do know that this reduced volume can cause a few issues that need to be addressed in certain applications but....." I have an Ilmor style pan from a Penske Busch motor going into a drag race application. Anything I need to be concerned with? Thanks.
The biggest issue is crankcase pressurization during start up. It comes down to engine displacement vs. pan area. Upon start up, the crankcase area can be pressurized by a slight amount of initial blow-by (prior to gas port/cylinder pressure sealing). Add to this to this the pumping of the pistons (swept volume vs. available area) and it can lead to sealing issues in larger ci engines. Another factor to add is oil drain back from the system into the crankcase while the engine is sitting, further decreasing the available crankcase volume during start up/prior to evacuation.
In this type of application, it is often necessary to have a check valve to bleed off this initial pressurization/pumping to atmosphere until the system can evacuate the area and and start building depression.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I guess what i am looking for is just the key components of a good dry sump pan.Just a general guideline of what is important and what is BS and i can take it from there.
Should it have a screen or rolled sheet metal and should it have a kick out?
 

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Wouldn't the dry sump it self and the vacuum pump take care of any pressure before you even flip the ignition??
I know I spin my engine over a second or so before firing.
You would think that would be enough vacuum to clear the crankcase??

Forgot to mention I use a basic Moroso, nothing fancy, the big box kind, probably paid $6-800??
I use a custom 5 stage oil pump and the good Moroso vacuum pump.

.
 

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Warp Speed, my application is a 360 ci SBF. As just stated, would cranking over of motor prior to firing help alleviate that issue? If not, where would you install the check valve in the system or motor?. Dont want to hijack the thread, just concerned. Thanks.
 

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I've heard from some that having dividers in the pan that seal to the main caps are worth between .8%-1% at 9200+ on a 500ci engine

Warp speed- in an application where space is not at a premium wouldn't an electric vacuum pump turned on prior to engine firing help solve the pressure issue. Then once running the engine driven pump will take over?
 

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The biggest issue is crankcase pressurization during start up. It comes down to engine displacement vs. pan area. Upon start up, the crankcase area can be pressurized by a slight amount of initial blow-by (prior to gas port/cylinder pressure sealing). Add to this to this the pumping of the pistons (swept volume vs. available area) and it can lead to sealing issues in larger ci engines. Another factor to add is oil drain back from the system into the crankcase while the engine is sitting, further decreasing the available crankcase volume during start up/prior to evacuation.
In this type of application, it is often necessary to have a check valve to bleed off this initial pressurization/pumping to atmosphere until the system can evacuate the area and and start building depression.
Curious... what would it hurt to have a small amount of crankcase pressure at start up as long as it goes into vacuum while running?

And how do you create that crankcase pressure if the same time you are trying to start your motor the pump is also turning?

Just curious since last week my new Dailey billet pan was on my door step. Pretty trick looking pan inside. But I did wonder why there was no kickout. :smt102 It's a lot smaller then my old wet sump pan.
 

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Another factor to add is oil drain back from the system into the crankcase while the engine is sitting, further decreasing the available crankcase volume during start up/prior to evacuation.
In this type of application, it is often necessary to have a check valve to bleed off this initial pressurization/pumping to atmosphere until the system can evacuate the area and and start building depression.
That makes a lot of sense. The oil tank is generally higher then the sump and oil will always want to drain to the lowest spot. Maybe that answered my question. I'm sure it takes a while to pull that oil from the pan back into the tank at start up.

Still not totally convinced what a small amount of pressure will hurt in the crankcase at start up. I'm interest in knowing this in case I need to add a relief valve.
 

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Wouldn't the dry sump it self and the vacuum pump take care of any pressure before you even flip the ignition??
I know I spin my engine over a second or so before firing.
You would think that would be enough vacuum to clear the crankcase??.
You got to remember, the air pump the starter is turning over (the engine) is allot bigger than the ones being turned by the crank mandrel.

.Forgot to mention I use a basic Moroso, nothing fancy, the big box kind, probably paid $6-800??
I use a custom 5 stage oil pump and the good Moroso vacuum pump.
Fairly common system used by many, but I am not a big fan of running an auxilary (vacuam?) punp with a dry sump system.

But thats a whole nother topic!
 

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Warp Speed, my application is a 360 ci SBF. As just stated, would cranking over of motor prior to firing help alleviate that issue? If not, where would you install the check valve in the system or motor?. Dont want to hijack the thread, just concerned. Thanks.


If the lower and upper halves of the engine are completely separated (sealed valley from crankcase), then you must vent the crankcase, typically from the original fuel pump boss with a hose running to approx valve cover level to avoid oil being pushed out.
If the crankcase and valley are common, one in the valve cover works well.
Engines with the valley separated are more sensitive, again, due to the reduction in available area.
 

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I've heard from some that having dividers in the pan that seal to the main caps are worth between .8%-1% at 9200+ on a 500ci engine
:cool:




Warp speed- in an application where space is not at a premium wouldn't an electric vacuum pump turned on prior to engine firing help solve the pressure issue. Then once running the engine driven pump will take over?
It could help for sure.
 

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Curious... what would it hurt to have a small amount of crankcase pressure at start up as long as it goes into vacuum while running? .
A "small amount" may not be a big deal, but any pressure can damage seals, and/or create a leak path. Most all "yester year", oem type seals are designed to work with system pressure. Most all modern race type seals are designed to be more efficient under depression. Just like anything, it's a compromise of efficiency.
Seals are the first place the pressure will try to vent, and if it doesn't do damage, best case is a small mess of oil during start up.

And how do you create that crankcase pressure if the same time you are trying to start your motor the pump is also turning?.
Again, the engine is a larger, more efficient pump than the others. The larger the delta between engine ci and available crankcase area, the more prominent this problem can be.

] Just curious since last week my new Dailey billet pan was on my door step. Pretty trick looking pan inside. But I did wonder why there was no kickout. :smt102 It's a lot smaller then my old wet sump pan.
Any pics?
 

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If the lower and upper halves of the engine are completely separated (sealed valley from crankcase), then you must vent the crankcase, typically from the original fuel pump boss with a hose running to approx valve cover level to avoid oil being pushed out.
If the crankcase and valley are common, one in the valve cover works well.
Engines with the valley separated are more sensitive, again, due to the reduction in available area.

Thanks for the info warp speed. Sealing the valley and crank case off would be when you seal the cam off in a enclosed cam tube right? Or is it more to it then that? I know our motor had a line to pull vac from the valley area.
 

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I guess what i am looking for is just the key components of a good dry sump pan.Just a general guideline of what is important and what is BS and i can take it from there.
Should it have a screen or rolled sheet metal and should it have a kick out?
John, there is no doubt in my mind, with your fab skills (insane really!) that you could build any of the versions mentioned with your eyes closed. It just comes down to what your goals are (max effort NA seeking every last amount of available efficiency or just a good working system), and what your combination is (engine size, rpm, oil flow and target depression levels).
The smaller bay systems being talked about are sensitive to position relative to the rotating assembly, and the evacuation point (louver(s). As oil flow goes down, and depression levels rise (again, combination specific) these optimum positions can change. Once you find the sweet spot for a given combination, the smaller, divided bay design can be VERY efficient. It just not very cut and dry.

A standard box, old school design can be helped by scrapers both screened and solid (although we always ran pretty much nothing in our box style pans due to this stuff coming apart during extended service from harmonics) and kick outs, but again, is Dependant on engine ci, oil flow and depression levels. This holds true to pick-up placement both in position and distance from the floor. Again, combo specific.

I know, none of this has really answered your question, but it's not a real cut and dry topic.
 
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