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I kill parts
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We preheat to 130-150*. Have been wet & dry sump, 10+ quarts. Everywhere from straight 50 down to 10w30 oil, clearances as I noted before. Dart block, .045 restrictors, back-banded/clocked cam bearings and -8 return lines from both heads. Aluminum pans, had tried Hamburger, Moroso, Billet Fab, and Olsen.


Did learn that I'd never again run a Titan Sportsman or above pump. That thing is entirely too large and moves WAY too much oil to ever establish a decent curve; the Sportsman Jr is borderline big. - When the mfg says you need 14qrts minimum with their pump in a wet sump application, what they really need is to about half size their pump so it doesn't cost you so much parasitic loss & pump so much oil up top to then need so much capacity to make a run.
 

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Oil flow rate, oil weight, and/or bearing temp? Curious what testing King has done to better understand the failures?
The only reason I stated that, is because like I mentioned earlier, we have numerous LS, SBC, SBF and even a few mod motors running the xp bearings between 12-1600whp. Nothing special, and they live just fine. Not sure if it's a batch deal and we've been fortunate not to get them, or maybe a geometry problem like I also mentioned, that didn't get caught during fitment?!? These are mostly wet sump, turbo methenol or E85 combos.
Not saying they are a perfect bearing but.......?
 

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This is an XP upper rod bearings from a turbo 5.3LS on methanol. 1200+whp, with 175 passes on them. The block finally broke the top of a cylinder, but all the bearings looked good for the abuse they've been through. Clearance was .0020-.0022.
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the xp is the trimetal bearing correct? the hp is the aluminum overlay? i have messed with the latter depending on which is which and it did not matter what i did i would wreck them in short order. both halves cratered and appeared the overlay just got sucked off the backing, put the trimetal version in it and it was fine. 1100-1300 hp n/a stuff with huge rpm. the xp (trimetal) kings i have had zero issues with in all the same applications. is this a recent occurance, is it wide spread? i know for a fact that eccentricty is a bigger deal than peopel think, everydody has stated verticle oil clearance numbers but did you ever check it at the parting line? i am asking because i have several here that i am a set to put the kings in and if there is some type of problem i would not mind knowing, i will just change them to the acl which seems like a good bearing. clevites are alright but as someone stated you almost have to buy 3-4 sets to find 8 that will work, sometimes you luck out but its not as often. had some 829hx.s this week and they were all about the same except one was .001" more clearance measure the shelfs and wouldnt you know they were to thin. oh well dig around the pile of stuff on the shelf and find a few that will work. this is the fear i have had for a while now, build all this stuff thats already out of control but you manage to keep them happy and one little 2 dollar part can level one in a second bearings springs bolts whatever it is, the only way to combat this is to build a testing/ metalurgy lab in the shop and test it all. who pays for that??? not the bearing guys i bet
 

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the xp is the trimetal bearing correct? the hp is the aluminum overlay? i have messed with the latter depending on which is which and it did not matter what i did i would wreck them in short order. both halves cratered and appeared the overlay just got sucked off the backing, put the trimetal version in it and it was fine. 1100-1300 hp n/a stuff with huge rpm. the xp (trimetal) kings i have had zero issues with in all the same applications. is this a recent occurance, is it wide spread? i know for a fact that eccentricty is a bigger deal than peopel think, everydody has stated verticle oil clearance numbers but did you ever check it at the parting line? i am asking because i have several here that i am a set to put the kings in and if there is some type of problem i would not mind knowing, i will just change them to the acl which seems like a good bearing. clevites are alright but as someone stated you almost have to buy 3-4 sets to find 8 that will work, sometimes you luck out but its not as often. had some 829hx.s this week and they were all about the same except one was .001" more clearance measure the shelfs and wouldnt you know they were to thin. oh well dig around the pile of stuff on the shelf and find a few that will work. this is the fear i have had for a while now, build all this stuff thats already out of control but you manage to keep them happy and one little 2 dollar part can level one in a second bearings springs bolts whatever it is, the only way to combat this is to build a testing/ metalurgy lab in the shop and test it all. who pays for that??? not the bearing guys i bet
Typical eccentricity for a race engine should be a minimum. 0008 measuring 45* from vertical, and should be fairly even side to side (a few tenths) That is with fairly tight clearances for the shaft size, and good parts. You can get away with a little less than perfect geometry side to side, as overall clearance increases. Most XP bearings I measure are around .001-.0015 over vertical at 45*.
 

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yeah i get all that and i would agree. my concern is a bearing i have used a lot of is having issues, when i have had none with their tri metal bearing. that worries me. lots of variables here also i suppose.
 

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yeah i get all that and i would agree. my concern is a bearing i have used a lot of is having issues, when i have had none with their tri metal bearing. that worries me. lots of variables here also i suppose.
The problems you are seeing are with the HP bearing not the XP, got it now! Lol
We run those mostly in our big power (2000 and up whp). Haven't really seen the problem you are describing, but these are most all 1/8th mile turbo drag stuff running Amsoil 50 or 60w Dominator and aluminum rods. Clearances ranging from .0025-.0035.
Yours seem to be mostly big hp NA stuff, which poses a differing set of challenges due to the negative TDC pressure at overlap. You would think the aluminum bearing may handle the cavitation this presents better at the surface, but this may also be what appears to be "sucking" the overlay bond apart?!?
 

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I kill parts
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just for reference, my combo was a 600ci BBC 1022hp NA on the dyno, ran with two systems for around 1650 total hp (ran mid 4's at 2840#).

I measure 5 directions on each rod and main, what I consider clearance is the average of the on center and each of the ~45* out. Then check close to the parting line each way just to make sure each of the shells are within reason of each other; probably pointless but I got in the habit of checking more thoroughly with all the issues we were having. - My numbers were checked by two different reputable shops on a couple different builds.

None of it was cheap/import parts for us, aside from one Eagle crank. Lunati, Bryant, Cola, Crower, GRP, Venolia, mostly Dart blocks but a couple Bowtie and one Merlin 3.



King specifically notes on their site about the "material migration" issue in which the HP's are supposed to combat better for drag race, tractor pull and other short duration/high load applications. - Over the past ~2 years they have clarified that statement more.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
Damn that sucks that's an ugly looking mess!!
Yes; that must have hurt....

Anyway; crank is out, and it sure looks better than above. I must say it's spotless...
I have found nothing to explain what happened, but I do have som theories; I'll sum up in a mooment.

First; mains look quite good. Rods; the two up front (1&5) lost all coating, lesser against the back of engine. Tool Automotive tire Wood Hand tool Cosmetics
Shoe Wood Metal Personal protective equipment Auto part


OK; here's the few suggestions I have- not arranged in a particular order;

  • Big end, crank pins, main pins or bearings variation in size, not discovered before assembly
  • Bleeding off the lifters.
  • Too little oil in pan (unlikely)
  • Oil pickup too close to pan floor (0,19- 0,23") Rectangular Canton item w/ tabs welded in 2 corners to keep the distance to the floor.
  • Cam bearings bleeding off; worn... doubt it.

Can I use "Smoke" on a spraycan to detect any access bleed- off? Blending the mains, cam and lifters in place? IDK....


Hope I did something smart enclosing pictures in this post. I Messed up in the first.


This was a set of the XP bearings, BTW.
Anyway; switching to H- series Clevite (and meassure them all...)

Thank you.
 

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Yes; that must have hurt....

Anyway; crank is out, and it sure looks better than above. I must say it's spotless...
I have found nothing to explain what happened, but I do have som theories; I'll sum up in a mooment.

First; mains look quite good. Rods; the two up front (1&5) lost all coating, lesser against the back of engine. View attachment 295134 View attachment 295135

OK; here's the few suggestions I have- not arranged in a particular order;

  • Big end, crank pins, main pins or bearings variation in size, not discovered before assembly
  • Bleeding off the lifters.
  • Too little oil in pan (unlikely)
  • Oil pickup too close to pan floor (0,19- 0,23") Rectangular Canton item w/ tabs welded in 2 corners to keep the distance to the floor.
  • Cam bearings bleeding off; worn... doubt it.

Can I use "Smoke" on a spraycan to detect any access bleed- off? Blending the mains, cam and lifters in place? IDK....


Hope I did something smart enclosing pictures in this post. I Messed up in the first.


This was a set of the XP bearings, BTW.
Anyway; switching to H- series Clevite (and meassure them all...)

Thank you.
I don't think the coating delaminated as a result of an oiling problem, my opinion is there was an issue with the coating or more specifically the application of the coating. I have seen coated rod bearings from engines that had significant oiling issues and the coating was way more intact than yours.

Also, the loss of the coating from all the rod bearings would not result in 4 psi of oil pressure in an otherwise "healthy" engine.
 

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These XP bearings were coated?
 

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The slight wear in the pics appears to be an oiling problem. As you noted, they look worse towards the front of the engine.
This IS NOT a bearing problem!
Just pulled down a 1700whp mod motor with about 40 passes since fresh (split a cylinder) and the XP rod bearings look new. This is with a Boostline rod, clearance at .0022-.0024.
 

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