Main cap ground crooked,didn’t square up the cap? Converter charge pressure restrictor?
Another converter spacing issue.
.
So I just had an engine lock up on the track during the 2nd pass
and at first they blamed me for being too tight without even asking what I set it up at.
It's the good Meziere and a good Neal Chance.
So not cheap junk.
It's at .140 exactly.
I was a .187 guy for decades and started going a little tighter a few years ago.
After the trans guy took apart the trans he said it's absolutely perfect.
So now the trans guy wants me to go even tighter.
He wants .090.
If I just chewed up a crank at .140, what will happen if I go even tighter??
What besides the converter banging into the crank can knock the thrust out of a brand new engine??
.
So I just had an engine lock up on the track during the 2nd pass
and at first they blamed me for being too tight without even asking what I set it up at.
It's the good Meziere and a good Neal Chance.
So not cheap junk.
It's at .140 exactly.
I was a .187 guy for decades and started going a little tighter a few years ago.
After the trans guy took apart the trans he said it's absolutely perfect.
So now the trans guy wants me to go even tighter.
He wants .090.
If I just chewed up a crank at .140, what will happen if I go even tighter??
What besides the converter banging into the crank can knock the thrust out of a brand new engine??
.
1 - 20 of 39 Posts
It's not a converter to flexplate clearance issue.
What's the engine combo?
Hutch
What's the engine combo?
Hutch
BBC AND GLIDE.
I've seen this issue/topic come up here on this board before, and it sure sounds scary to me, so I'm all ears so to speak. I'm very curious about something you stated above^^^ ....what made you decide to start going tighter than the .187" you used to use? You say that you have a Meziere flex plate? I just sold one of them, because I decided to use an ATI racing one instead. It looked to me that the Meziere F/P was made more rigid and solid than the F/P I have from ATI racing, and ATI says that this is a bad thing, because a "Flex" plate is supposed to flex. And some aftermarket ones appear to be made so rigid that they might not flex too easy. Not meaning to be a wise guy here. I'm merely trying to learn from what just happened to you at the track, and maybe in some small way bring up things that might be of help..
So I just had an engine lock up on the track during the 2nd pass
and at first they blamed me for being too tight without even asking what I set it up at.
It's the good Meziere and a good Neal Chance.
So not cheap junk.
It's at .140 exactly.
I was a .187 guy for decades and started going a little tighter a few years ago.
After the trans guy took apart the trans he said it's absolutely perfect.
So now the trans guy wants me to go even tighter.
He wants .090.
If I just chewed up a crank at .140, what will happen if I go even tighter??
What besides the converter banging into the crank can knock the thrust out of a brand new engine??
.
I've seen this issue/topic come up here on this board before, and it sure sounds scary to me, so I'm all ears so to speak. I'm very curious about something you stated above^^^ ....what made you decide to start going tighter than the .187" you used to use? You say that you have a Meziere flex plate? I just sold one of them, because I decided to use an ATI racing one instead. It looked to me that the Meziere F/P was made more rigid and solid than the F/P I have from ATI racing, and ATI says that this is a bad thing, because a "Flex" plate is supposed to flex. And some aftermarket ones appear to be made so rigid that they might not flex too easy. Not meaning to be a wise guy here. I'm merely trying to learn from what just happened to you at the track, and maybe in some small way bring up things that might be of help.
I changed flexplates because it had 1700 HP and multiple people that have a clue recommended it.
I had trouble with spacing on the standard model I bought from Coan.
The Meziere fit better.
I went tighter again because multiple people that know much more than I ever will suggested it.
More people suggested being closer to .125 than .187.
I judged them by their experience and previous advice.
I personally was not comfortable going down to .125, so I've been using ~.140 or slightly above.
I do know I will not be using .090 any time soon.
.
Been there done that, was rather costly, the repair on the crank, shipping both ways, etc, sent to Marine Crankshafts in San Diego to have the thrust surface ground and welded and ground back to spec. Then when I got it back, they ground to wrong dimension, had to bring to a local crank co. to have something like .008 taken off the thrust surface.
What started all this crap, you ask?????
I had bought a spare new torque converter which was supposed to be a twin to the first one. Now this was from the same company using the same numbers stamped on the shell, and gave them my original invoice number. Well.....it wasn't identical to the first...... I always used .140 between the converter and flexplate. When I was installing the new spare to try it, I could only get .115. Converter company said this was correct, to run it....again it wasn't...... It took 2 runs to get thrust bearing material in the oil filter, hence my problems with the crank. After all this bullshit, lesson learned......had to get .040 ground off the new spare, then I got .145 clearance.
Another piece of advice, when using grade 8 washers for shims, mike the washers, they never all measure equal thickness......correct by sanding with 400 paper on a piece of glass
I will NEVER go with less than .145, no matter what anyone advises....
What started all this crap, you ask?????
I had bought a spare new torque converter which was supposed to be a twin to the first one. Now this was from the same company using the same numbers stamped on the shell, and gave them my original invoice number. Well.....it wasn't identical to the first...... I always used .140 between the converter and flexplate. When I was installing the new spare to try it, I could only get .115. Converter company said this was correct, to run it....again it wasn't...... It took 2 runs to get thrust bearing material in the oil filter, hence my problems with the crank. After all this bullshit, lesson learned......had to get .040 ground off the new spare, then I got .145 clearance.
Another piece of advice, when using grade 8 washers for shims, mike the washers, they never all measure equal thickness......correct by sanding with 400 paper on a piece of glass
I will NEVER go with less than .145, no matter what anyone advises....
What I am missing here in all of this, is what is the reason why anyone, (aftermarket manufacture or machine shop) suggests using less than .187" clearance for in the first place? The owner of Neal Chance Torque converters, (Marty Channce) told me over the phone that it's a common thing for the converter to walk back and forth while the drive train is loaded and under torque and he did not mention any need to reduce the spacing distance.
Anyone that spaces a converter back tight into the trans like they did in that video needs to sell the every tool they own and not quit their day job.
I have ran glide setups at .125 or just under, and maybe at lose as 3/16 and never tore up anything for 30 years but I understand in this day and age of stupid chit happening maybe that isnt good enough anymore.
I have ran glide setups at .125 or just under, and maybe at lose as 3/16 and never tore up anything for 30 years but I understand in this day and age of stupid chit happening maybe that isnt good enough anymore.
That video doesn’t even mention anything about pilot to crank end.
I have never noticed who mentions what to check, but I know that I always check both ends (pump pullout and pilot to crank interference). If not you’re just flying blind.To my knowledge, (which is limited) neither do the torque converter manufactures, nor the transmissions manufactures make mention of that^ either.
.
I have three different brands of grade 8 washers,
2 gold that are way different and purple that is in between.
I also have some standard washers that are very thick and very thin.
So between those 5, I can usually get what I want.
I also have a big ass welding table with a 1" top that I can fine tune the washers if needed.
Like I always say, I am NOT a mechanic, never claim to be, but I can get the spacing right.
I knew I didn't blow up the new engine, but when the so-called experts tell you setting up the spacing is the only thing that causes the thrust getting knocked out.
You start to doubt yourself!!!
.
I have three different brands of grade 8 washers,
2 gold that are way different and purple that is in between.
I also have some standard washers that are very thick and very thin.
So between those 5, I can usually get what I want.
I also have a big ass welding table with a 1" top that I can fine tune the washers if needed.
Like I always say, I am NOT a mechanic, never claim to be, but I can get the spacing right.
I knew I didn't blow up the new engine, but when the so-called experts tell you setting up the spacing is the only thing that causes the thrust getting knocked out.
You start to doubt yourself!!!
.
Please disregard what I said in post #13...I was wrong.....Rossler mentions the same thing that you did about the pilot engagement. Thanks.I have never noticed who mentions what to check, but I know that I always check both ends (pump pullout and pilot to crank interference). If not you’re just flying blind.
TechRossler Transmissions Inc
Mr. dragster, Way back in 1978 I was building a 302 cu. in. SBC to run C/SM in NHRA. Yea, I never had a chance, but didn't know any better. Well, when finished, put in the car started it, ran great. Ran for awhile in the driveway, didn't go to the track yet.
Let it cool, checked everything. Oil had very small amount of moisture, so I drained the oil, clearly bearing material in oil. Took it out and apart. Thrust bearing tore up. All the clearances were checked when I assembled it ,had new crank, aluminum rods, good pistons, etc. checked main saddles, all good, except the thrust. After doing this 3 times with same results, the machinist had me bring everything to them, said I had to be doing something wrong. Got it back, absolutely nothing could be found. This time, I put in car, left transmission out, 4 speed Doug Nash Pro Shifted deal, since machinist thought the input shaft was pushing the crank forward. Started it again, ran for awhile, drained the oil, more metal. Took it all back apart, same torn up thrust bearing, brought everything back to machine shop. Re-checked everything, nothing could be found. Shop owner, in frustration, called TRW, which was the manufacturer of the rod and main bearings back then, with all our clearance notes, come to find out TRW had problems with their bearings "flaking" in the thrust area only. They offered to replace the main bearing set only after much heated discussion.
So, I've learned to "Lower My Expectation, So I Won't Be Disappointed". regarding the quality of parts, even in racing.
Let it cool, checked everything. Oil had very small amount of moisture, so I drained the oil, clearly bearing material in oil. Took it out and apart. Thrust bearing tore up. All the clearances were checked when I assembled it ,had new crank, aluminum rods, good pistons, etc. checked main saddles, all good, except the thrust. After doing this 3 times with same results, the machinist had me bring everything to them, said I had to be doing something wrong. Got it back, absolutely nothing could be found. This time, I put in car, left transmission out, 4 speed Doug Nash Pro Shifted deal, since machinist thought the input shaft was pushing the crank forward. Started it again, ran for awhile, drained the oil, more metal. Took it all back apart, same torn up thrust bearing, brought everything back to machine shop. Re-checked everything, nothing could be found. Shop owner, in frustration, called TRW, which was the manufacturer of the rod and main bearings back then, with all our clearance notes, come to find out TRW had problems with their bearings "flaking" in the thrust area only. They offered to replace the main bearing set only after much heated discussion.
So, I've learned to "Lower My Expectation, So I Won't Be Disappointed". regarding the quality of parts, even in racing.
I really like the Daido racing bearings. They have an independent "floating thrust". Probably not using the right term, but the thrust is separate from the bearing. Like the old Vandervells.
MR I was always lucky enough to have a local guy that would chuck up a piece of steel bar and have me some made to exact thickness in about 30 minutes or less..
I have three different brands of grade 8 washers,
2 gold that are way different and purple that is in between.
I also have some standard washers that are very thick and very thin.
So between those 5, I can usually get what I want.
I also have a big ass welding table with a 1" top that I can fine tune the washers if needed.
Like I always say, I am NOT a mechanic, never claim to be, but I can get the spacing right.
I knew I didn't blow up the new engine, but when the so-called experts tell you setting up the spacing is the only thing that causes the thrust getting knocked out.
You start to doubt yourself!!!
.
I always measure total clearance back against trans and subtract .125 to get my spacer thickness. Then, it's not a little on the tight or loose side.
Mr. dragster, Way back in 1978 I was building a 302 cu. in. SBC to run C/SM in NHRA. Yea, I never had a chance, but didn't know any better. Well, when finished, put in the car started it, ran great. Ran for awhile in the driveway, didn't go to the track yet.
Let it cool, checked everything. Oil had very small amount of moisture, so I drained the oil, clearly bearing material in oil. Took it out and apart. Thrust bearing tore up. All the clearances were checked when I assembled it ,had new crank, aluminum rods, good pistons, etc. checked main saddles, all good, except the thrust. After doing this 3 times with same results, the machinist had me bring everything to them, said I had to be doing something wrong. Got it back, absolutely nothing could be found. This time, I put in car, left transmission out, 4 speed Doug Nash Pro Shifted deal, since machinist thought the input shaft was pushing the crank forward. Started it again, ran for awhile, drained the oil, more metal. Took it all back apart, same torn up thrust bearing, brought everything back to machine shop. Re-checked everything, nothing could be found. Shop owner, in frustration, called TRW, which was the manufacturer of the rod and main bearings back then, with all our clearance notes, come to find out TRW had problems with their bearings "flaking" in the thrust area only. They offered to replace the main bearing set only after much heated discussion.
So, I've learned to "Lower My Expectation, So I Won't Be Disappointed". regarding the quality of parts, even in racing.
In 2023 for $30,000 you would expect pretty damn good bearings!!!
Even 45 years ago, you would expect a bearing material to be pretty damn well perfected!!!
That being said, TRW was a huge upgrade for us little guys, but by todays standards I don't know how we made it down the track??
1 - 20 of 39 Posts
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