Yellow Bullet Forums banner

1 - 20 of 72 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Has anyone ever run an air to water intercooler setup with no onboard water reservoir and pump? And relied on an external 'cool down cart' for between round cool down?
Obviously this is for a drag car, that is looking to minimize weight.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
179 Posts
You only have the heat rejection of the thermal mass of the water in the intercooler. It would heat soak quite rapidly probably 100ft down track.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,984 Posts
I'd run without the intercooler before I ran one without water, how much power? My buddy runs a 540 with twin 88's on C16, no intercooler, just some meth injection. He keeps things around 30 psi,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
You only have the heat rejection of the thermal mass of the water in the intercooler. It would heat soak quite rapidly probably 100ft down track.
Is this any different than how an air to air acts in an 1/8th mile car?
1500hp fwiw. Runs 5.ohhh's now, non intercooled on gas
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,219 Posts
Is this any different than how an air to air acts in an 1/8th mile car?
1500hp fwiw. Runs 5.ohhh's now, non intercooled on gas
As you speed down the track the A/A will work better. The water in the cooler will continue to heat soak.
run methanol for the best of both worlds.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,582 Posts
Can I get a AMEN 🙌, LOL
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,355 Posts
An a/a WILL NOT cool down down track. There simply isn't enough time in your typical 8-9 second pass. For an A/A to work it has to achieve equilibrium first, and that won't happen on a drag strip (unless you're running a 2 minute quarter mile). Op, your original supposition is correct - an a/a is simply a heatsink on a drag car. A/W is a bit different. Water is far better at cooling (technically, absorbing heat). To prove it to yourself, go out on a 60 degree day wearing nothing but shorts. A little cool, but you'd be fine. Now jump in a 60* (water temp) pool - you'll be freezing your ass off instantly.

I will say using no reservoir will work, but it'll also heat up fast. My system has a 3 gallon tank (I use it as an armrest), and even in my lowly 9 second street car it'll melt 10 - 15lbs of ice between burnout, stage and pass.

Here's a pass with just cooled water in the tank. I run a temperature gauge for the water - it's the little lcd screen by the shifter. The gauge only updates once every about 10 seconds or so. When my hand's not in the way, you can see it started at 62 degrees, and by the turnoff, it was 82 degrees (it updated right at the end of the video):


Here's one with ice in the tank (you can hear the ice knocking around - I'm resting my elbow on the tank). Water temp starts off much colder and rises by less than 10 degrees:


By the time I'm on the return road, there's pretty much no more ice to be heard.

Then I started using the trans brake, and this happens to my LCD temp gauge:


But once again, the ice is basically all gone by the time I'm on the return road.

HTH.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,355 Posts
They can't even spell correctly and you're going to believe what they say? Lol. Those people are morons. Either way, you're not taking into account time needed to achieve equilibrium. And the heat absorbing efficiency of water vs air. There's a reason OEMs use a/w systems - and it isn't because they're cheaper (they're not). Watch the videos above. An A/W doesn't achieve equilibrium on a dragstrip either, but it doesn't have to - it starts out much colder to begin with and water's got a much higher specific heat capacity - over 4 times higher than air. Water also has a MUCH higher thermal conductivity - like 25 times higher. So no, an A/A will never - let me repeat that - NEVER - be more than a heatsink going down track.

It's basic physics (thermodynamics) and it's illustrated quite nicely in my videos above. But you can insist on what you want; this is the internet, and some people believe anything they see/read (no matter how illiterate the idiot is writing it); even in the face of first hand video evidence.

Sort of like the people who think putting a flow restrictor in their cooling system helps the car cool faster because the water's moving "too fast" through the radiator. You just can't fix stupid, but duct tape can silence it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,219 Posts
As long as the cooler has sufficient area and proper flow.

Baby Jesus said so.

Would you like another source to debate? Maybe with correct spelling?

NASCAR has proven duct tape to work at over 200mph.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23,557 Posts
The water to air without reservoir will work IMO . But you dont want boost during the burnout heating the water in the core .

It will also depend on the amount of boost during the pass .

In a 5 sec pass I couldnt see the water getting that hot . Depending on how cold the pre cooling is .

But even warm water does a better job than ambient air through an air to air .

And if your running C16 , AITs dont have to be THAT cool .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23,557 Posts
Im at 75 degrees at the launch and 100 at the 1/8 , and 125 at the 1/4 . Ice in 5 gal reservoir 34psi of boost . No pre cooling , just turning the pump on after the burn out .

If you can achieve under 150 degrees at the 1/8 on C16 using just the water in the core , I think you should be fine . A lot of guys running much higher on blow-thrus with no coolers
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,355 Posts
As long as the cooler has sufficient area and proper flow.

Baby Jesus said so.

Would you like another source to debate? Maybe with correct spelling?

NASCAR has proven duct tape to work at over 200mph.
I'll say it one more time - an A/A will never be more than a heatsink on a dragstrip. It will always get hotter, never cool off downtrack. Period. Not debatable. I've given you simple analogies you're either unable or refusing to grasp - the 60* day/pool analogy is about as simple as I can make it. You clearly don't understand thermodynamics at all; and pulling random links from the internet is no replacement for first hand empirical testing of these theorums. Ever build your own intercooler CORE? No? I have:

78249


78250


78251


That's what's in my car. I designed and built all that shit in my garage. She's pretty ain't she? I've done math and it works really well. As you saw. There's a reason Whipple's top of the line core is made from copper and costs over 7 grand.

I've said my two cents - which happen to be absolutely correct. Arguing on the internet is like coming in first in the special olympics - even if you win, you're still retarded.

That actually pains me to say because I volunteer my time and services to help people with intellectual disabilities. However, sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade. But go ahead, send me any link that shows an A/A intercooler actually cools off down track on a dragstrip as the car gathers speed. Show me a datalog, anything and I'll mail you a hooker.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,219 Posts
I'll say it one more time - an A/A will never be more than a heatsink on a dragstrip. It will always get hotter, never cool off downtrack. Period. Not debatable. I've given you simple analogies you're either unable or refusing to grasp - the 60* day/pool analogy is about as simple as I can make it. You clearly don't understand thermodynamics at all; and pulling random links from the internet is no replacement for first hand empirical testing of these theorums. Ever build your own intercooler CORE? No? I have:

View attachment 78249

View attachment 78250

View attachment 78251

That's what's in my car. I designed and built all that shit in my garage. She's pretty ain't she? I've done math and it works really well. As you saw. There's a reason Whipple's top of the line core is made from copper and costs over 7 grand.

I've said my two cents - which happen to be absolutely correct. Arguing on the internet is like coming in first in the special olympics - even if you win, you're still retarded.

That actually pains me to say because I volunteer my time and services to help people with intellectual disabilities. However, sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade. But go ahead, send me any link that shows an A/A intercooler actually cools off down track on a dragstrip as the car gathers speed. Show me a datalog, anything and I'll mail you a hooker.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,219 Posts
Im at 75 degrees at the launch and 100 at the 1/8 , and 125 at the 1/4 . Ice in 5 gal reservoir 34psi of boost . No pre cooling , just turning the pump on after the burn out .

If you can achieve under 150 degrees at the 1/8 on C16 using just the water in the core , I think you should be fine . A lot of guys running much higher on blow-thrus with no coolers
You understand what I was saying. The a/a will only be limited by surface area and flow sufficiently meeting his needs better as it continues to dissipate heat down the track. The a/w will have limited ability to cool . Limited by the amount and temperature of the water before and during the run. As you stated time of use to the water capacity within the cooler.
I never stated A/A was more efficient but given the circumstances ....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,355 Posts
Goddamn, you're stupid AF. An A/A might as well be a solid block of aluminum (copper would be better) for a drag car. No amount of airflow or surface area (short of surface area on the INSIDE for the intake charge) will make any significant difference. If what your dumbass is trying to say was even remotely true, then airtemps would drop on an A/A - your words - "As long as the cooler has sufficient area and proper flow."

It functions as a heatsink. But man, you're just too stupid to get it.

Show me a datalog on an A/A car (or ANY drag car - as I've said now SEVERAL TIMES - the aftercooling system - A/W or A/A simply doesn't have enough time to reach equilibrium in a pass) where the IATs go down. All A/A or A/W systems are on a drag car is a heatsink. And water has 4 times the capacity and 25 times the thermal conductivity of air.

Damn. Are you really incapable of grasping something so simple? Forrest?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
62 Posts
I'll say it one more time - an A/A will never be more than a heatsink on a dragstrip. It will always get hotter, never cool off downtrack. Period. Not debatable. I've given you simple analogies you're either unable or refusing to grasp - the 60* day/pool analogy is about as simple as I can make it. You clearly don't understand thermodynamics at all; and pulling random links from the internet is no replacement for first hand empirical testing of these theorums. Ever build your own intercooler CORE? No? I have:

View attachment 78249

View attachment 78250

View attachment 78251

That's what's in my car. I designed and built all that shit in my garage. She's pretty ain't she? I've done math and it works really well. As you saw. There's a reason Whipple's top of the line core is made from copper and costs over 7 grand.
It is beautiful! But to the casual observer, it seems to lack fins. From the standpoint of transferring heat from the air to the copper I would think increasing the surface area available to a maximum would decrease the number of tubes required fairly dramatically, a la the cts-v/cobalt laminova setups. I assume a bunch of tubes is easier to make, but did you do any math on the surface area available and how the air interacts with it? Thanks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,355 Posts
Let's try this another way - a car radiator is a pretty good analog to an A/A intercooler, with the exception of coolant - which, as I've said several times now, has about 25 times the thermal conductivity of air (it's closer to an A/W, but apparently I'm determined to pound this into your thick head). Let's say you have a radiator on a 300 hp car. It's more or less accepted that you need ~40 BTU (one BTU is enough heat to raise 1 lb of water 1 degree Fahrenheit - it's generally understood to be PER HOUR - that's important, it'll bite you in the ass later) per hp. So your 300 hp car has a radiator capable of rejecting 12,000 BTUs per hour. Now let's pretend you tried to air cool that system. You would need a radiator 25 times the size to be as effective as water cooling (water is 25 times more thermally conductive). In other words, not happening.

Now let's look at a 1,000 hp drag car. That requires more or less 1,400 cfm (boost is irrelevent here - that's why turbo maps are in mass flow, not cfm). So you're trying to cool 1,400 cfm - it takes about .24 BTUs to raise 1 cubic foot of air 1 degree. Or to drop it - it works both ways. Let's say your charge temp is a typical (for a 1,000 hp car) 230 degrees. To drop your charge temp to a reasonable 130* F, you'll need to dissipate 100 degrees. That's about 151,000 BTUs per hour (the formula is CFM * 1.08 * tRise = Btu/hr). Remember the 300 hp car radiator? Yeah, that could only reject 12,000 BTUs per hour. And that's with water cooling. You'd need an A/A cooler 300 times the size (with your precious - lol - "sufficient airflow") of that 300 hp radiator to actually dissipate that heat.

That'll make your average A/A cooler roughly 750 FEET wide and 600 FEET high to accomplish your moronic claim as long "As long as the cooler has sufficient area and proper flow." Where the hell are you gonna put that, Cochise?

That also explains why OEMs no longer use A/A coolers on cars with decent power outputs - it simply can't be done. By the time you'd pull enough timing to keep it from knocking, you've melted it down because the timing's so far retarded.

We haven't even talked about thermal inertia yet, which is another part you're not getting. The specific heat of aluminum is about .22 - specific heat is BTU/lb per degree. Your air charge, which we've determined has 151,000 BTUs per hour of heat we want to lose. Or 2,500 BTUs per minute. Or 400 BTUs per 10 second pass (I realized if you're making 1,000 hp and running 10's you have other problems; but it makes the math easier). So just for the aluminum on your cooler to get up to temperature (so it can then dissipate that heat - we'll ignore that for now because it makes your statement sound even stupider), it'll take a 20 lb A/A cooler almost 20 seconds just to get up to temperature from 60* ambient - and that's assuming 100% of the charge heat is going into the A/A cooler - which is more like 20% in reality - by the time the cooler's even up to temperature, you're getting your timeslip - i.e. IT NEVER EVEN GETS UP TO TEMPERATURE. There's some minor dissipation happening - but the delta T between charge temp and ambient temps play a role and this would turn into a book; but as we've learned from the 300 hp car radiator example, it's a pittance compared to the heat you're pumping into it - basically, the dissipation is nothing even remotely significant.

Another factor - the thicker the cooler core, the less efficient it is. Again, this brings up delta T - as the air moves from the front of the core to the back of the core, it's already heated up some; efficiency drops pretty dramatically as the temperature differential drops.

So why use an A/A at all? Simple. On a street or road course car, the FI (be it turbo or blower) has TIME to cool off between bursts of boost - as long as we're talking about relatively low-powered cars. Too often in boost? It'll eventually melt down. You physically can't make a car sized A/A cooler that can hit a reasonable equilibrium temperature an hold it there indefinitely.

To be sure, this is a static examination of a dynamic scenario with a lot of variables; but none of them assist the notion of, "As long as the cooler has sufficient area and proper flow ."

We've done it the easy way and we've done it the hard way. There's no more I can do to make you understand why your assertion is asinine. Hell, most of this is going from memory - even if I'm off by a factor of 10 - which I'm most likely not - you'd still need an A/A cooler 75 feet wide...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,355 Posts
It is beautiful! But to the casual observer, it seems to lack fins. From the standpoint of transferring heat from the air to the copper I would think increasing the surface area available to a maximum would decrease the number of tubes required fairly dramatically, a la the cts-v/cobalt laminova setups. I assume a bunch of tubes is easier to make, but did you do any math on the surface area available and how the air interacts with it? Thanks.
Thanks. And I did do the math. It's got 140 feet of 1/4" copper tube in it (it's actually pretty damn heavy); there's 102 tubes in there. The surface area is easy to calculate - Circumference is Pi * D. .25" tube has a circumference of .785 inches x 140 feet (1,680 inches), giving the core about 1,300 square inches of surface area. And copper is almost twice as heat conductive as aluminum. Also, if you look at how the blower's mounted, the air actually goes through it in two directions - across it and along the tubes; giving the air more effective "exposure time." That's really the biggest reason why I had to make it - commercial cores only allow 1 direction of flow, and I wanted to keep this thing under the stock hood. That and my daughter was too young to leave alone in the evenings back then, so I spent hours in the garage in the late evenings making it. I used a similar line of thought as I've outlined above to figure out if it would be adequate, and it certainly worked out - actually better than I thought it would. The only thing I didn't think of was galvanic action - the endcaps are aluminum, and the body's copper - it's basically a battery with water in it. The aluminum is what gets eroded away first, so after a couple of years I pulled it to check it out (and fix a small leak), and I found a good deal of corrosion on the aluminum. Since then I've sealed the aluminum with epoxy paint and installed a sacrificial zinc anode (like the kind used in outboard motors on boats), and all's been fine since then.

I made a video about it:

Here's how I made the tubes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Thanks for the input.
I'm going to give the A/W a try without an on board resevoir or pump.
I'll cool it down with a cool down unit between rounds.
If I don't like what's happening, I'll add the reservoir and pump.
 
1 - 20 of 72 Posts
Top