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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I had previously posted, I would share my engine/dyno test data when I got my motor together so here is.
For reference the motor is
555 BBC
Dart Big M tall Deck block 4.562 bore 4.250 Stroke
GRP Pro 5300 Aluminum rods 6.700 long
Scat Pro Comp crank
Je Pistons 13.8:1 comp lateral gas ported .043 x 1/16 x 3/16 rings w/ Swain Tech Gold coating on domes and Poly Moly on skirts
Dart 360 heads originally ported by AFR and reworked by Pat Musi about 4 years ago to handle nitrous
Dart Manifold w/ Kinsler mechanical fuel injection w/1600 cfm dominator throttle body 0-1 pump running T-790 nozzles
MSD crank trigger, locked dist, 7AL-3, Pro-Coil
Headman upturned stepped dragster headers
Comp cam 47S 321R12 .748 lift 286 in 296 ex @ .050 lift 112 lobe sep 4/7 swap
VP M5 Methanol

We started our dyno testing last night and made 3 pulls. Once we get the motor alone sorted we will spray a 225 shot of nitrous with C-16.
Presently we are shooting for peak toque first by adjusting main by-pass pills and timing. After thats is sorted out I will put the high speed by-pass in and go for peak horse power. Right now limiting out test rpm range from 4000-6500 rpm motor/cam combo should be good for 7600+ rpm
#1 pull 34 degs timing .094 pill (+11.1% rich) 732.1 ft/# @ 5700 rpm
#2 pull 34 degs timing .098 pill (+7.7% rich) 731.7 ft/# @ 5400-5900 rpm
#3 pull 37 degs timing .098 pill 726.1 ft/# @ 5700 rpm

#1 run made better torque from 4000- 5300,
#2 run made better torque from 5400 – 6500
#3 run was lower every place. by approx 2.7%
Tonight I need to change the oil, inspect the oil filter and adjust the valves. Being it did not like more timing we will drop the timing back to 32 degs and see how that goes. I think we also need to adjust the thermocouple position as the EGT’s are only 950 deg F. I had to plumb them in from the bottom and I think they need to be raised.
 

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"Darkness"
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Where did you dyno? What was the HP?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I dyno @ Pro-Formance on Main Street in Rochester, NY. Right now we are not looking Hp because we are limiting the rpm and tuning the bottom end for peak torque first (main by-pass pill & timing). Once we maximized that we will put the high speed by-pass back in the system and tune for peak Hp and see what RPM it will pull. Next step after that is add a baby 225 Hp spray.
I will post more as we get time to make pulls.
 

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Ever think about changing nozzle/jet size to increase fuel pressure?

There's two schools of thinking on pressure to my knowledge.

One is that a higher pressure will atomize the fuel better as it bounces off the nozzle tip.

The other being that excessive pressure will shoot the fuel into the top side of the runner bend because the fuel velocity exceeds the air velocity. In doing so, once it's plastered against the outside bend of the runner, it puddles and you lose the atomizing gains.

Ever done any testing like that?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I had this conversation with Brad @ Kinsler back about a month ago. He asked me by increasing the pressure what was I trying to gain. I told him better atomize the fuel. He said think about this, when the intake valve opens the exhaust valve is still open and the piston is on it's way up. So now you have reversion, add that to some high port velocity and in his experience there was no need for higher pressure. I figured he see alot more systems that I ever have and decided to stick with what I have. As a point of referance @ 6500 rpm the motor was drawing 998 cfm or 124.75 cfm per cylinder. I am collecting, fuel pressure, fuel flow and air flow so I need to look at a/f ratio tonight.
 

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"Darkness"
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I dyno @ Pro-Formance on Main Street in Rochester, NY. Right now we are not looking Hp because we are limiting the rpm and tuning the bottom end for peak torque first (main by-pass pill & timing). Once we maximized that we will put the high speed by-pass back in the system and tune for peak Hp and see what RPM it will pull. Next step after that is add a baby 225 Hp spray.
I will post more as we get time to make pulls.
Cool keep us posted.
 

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Thanks for sharing.I'm gonna build a short deck with 6.535 rods and I have to get some other heads cause I have bb2 plus ported.I'm gonna run 1 1434cfm toilet.
 

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I had this conversation with Brad @ Kinsler back about a month ago. He asked me by increasing the pressure what was I trying to gain. I told him better atomize the fuel. He said think about this, when the intake valve opens the exhaust valve is still open and the piston is on it's way up. So now you have reversion, add that to some high port velocity and in his experience there was no need for higher pressure. I figured he see alot more systems that I ever have and decided to stick with what I have. As a point of referance @ 6500 rpm the motor was drawing 998 cfm or 124.75 cfm per cylinder. I am collecting, fuel pressure, fuel flow and air flow so I need to look at a/f ratio tonight.
Not to disparage anyone at Kinsler... But I've spoken with a few guys there, and I wasn't really impressed with any of them in their technical knowledge.

I felt more like they were reading from a flow chart, trying to push their parts down my neck, rather than having actual knowledge of fuel systems.

I had an issue last year with one of their filters. Upon disassembling the filter, I found that it had twisted inside of the housing. Not sure why or how this could have happened. It was installed correctly into the housing, and had the proper o-rings inside. I lubed the orings before screwing it all back together. When calling Kinsler and asking if they had ever seen or heard of this happening before, the guy laughed at me. I feel that the restricted flow of this filter may have trashed my last motor, but, I can't prove that, and it may be that upon the blower banging, it put excessive pressure back into the fuel system causing the filter to collapse. In either case, the guy should have been more interested in helping me figure out why it had collapsed than laughing at me.

As for the reversion... At what degree in the stroke does the intake valve open? How much does the piston move upward in the bore once it opens? Based on known air consumption per cylinder, how much air is actually being reverted based on the time the piston travels up once the valve opens.

Kinsler blindly stating that increased fuel pressure won't help without information to back it up really is nothing more than opinion, not fact.

If you have the time and resources to test this, it would certainly be worth experimenting.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I hear what your saying, Kinsler has a few new guys but I have worked and spoken with Brad for over 10 years and he has always done right by me. It is a good question to run by Spud @ Fuel Injection Enterprises
As far as the time I have that, but resource wise I was told by my buddy that owns the cars/motors that I spent this years and next year buget! I tell him "horse power cost money"
I am thinking that I will have a prety good idea on how well the fuel is being atomized once I sit down and digest the fuel flow vs air flow, if the software can't give me a/f ratio I will do an excel spread sheet for it.
So it sounds like you lean toward smaller nozzles and higher pressure, how high are we talking about?
 

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Well, that kind of depends on your pump.

If it's an Enderle pump, max you're going to want to go is around 175. From my understanding of that cast design, the housing distorts under higher pressure causing flow losses and possibly cavitation.

Billet pumps, depending on the application, can withstand pressures upwards of 400 PSI or more. But, on those pumps capable of that, we're talking "Nuke" and others used in top fuel.

Right now my system pressure is below where I want it to be. I'd prefer to have it around 150 PSI, and I'll make the adjustments to get it there once I have the EGT's balanced out.
 

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I was kinda hoping you were going to make a couple pulls with M1 first, any plans on doing this? Also, am I correct in assuming the M5 likes a little less timing? Good info so far, thanks.

Bryan
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I was kinda hoping you were going to make a couple pulls with M1 first, any plans on doing this? Also, am I correct in assuming the M5 likes a little less timing? Good info so far, thanks.

Bryan
It's a time and money thing. I would love to have a week worth of dyno time but thats not going to happen. We sat down and figured out what we could an could not do. I spoke to a couple of other guys that have tried M5 and everyone of them went faster. So we are testing strickly with M5.
We ran 1 dyno pull tonight. The only change was to drop the timing to 32 degs (tried 34 and 36 so far). That yielded the best run yet. We picked up an average of 10 ft/# of torque thru the run, I can deal with that.
We need to open the front cover because the gear drive is sounding a tad noisey. If that checks out we will do some more pulls on Monday night. We also need to fit one of the exhaust pipes as it blew a seal out and the room quickly filled with enough fumes to make us cry.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
As noted on my previous post the gears drive started sounding noisy last Thursday. I opened the cover sure enough the idler gear bearing was just starting to go. I replaced it and we were good to go.
Monday night did 4 2/3 pulls. 2/3 was because we blew one of the exhaust adapters a part 2/3 into the 1st run.
The other 4 runs got nowhere fast. We tried 3 different pills sizes and 2 different timing positions and we felt we did not see enough change (+/- 15 ft/# of torque and only 50 deg EGT increase). Last night we sat down and looked at all the data and kicked around smaller nozzles to up the fuel pressure and try and atomize the fuel better. Matt that owns the shop was there and noted that he experienced the same problem with a 497 BBC. They dropped from #35 nozzles to #33 and the motor came alive and responded to changes. Lucky for us Matt said he has a few sets of nozzles at home so tonight we will test with smaller nozzles and higher pressure. I used Spud’s calculation sheet to determine pill size so tonight we shall see how that works out.
WJ did you start out with lower pressure and then move to higher pressure? I am hoping Matt has small enough nozzle so I can get to Spud’s recommended 100psi range.
 

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I'm running right around 100psi with my set up using 31's in my small block with an 01/2 pump, and I settled on 75 in the main.

Bryan
 
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