Yellow Bullet Forums banner
1 - 9 of 9 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello -

Gotta leave the Cadillac boards every so often as they want you to keep it stock, and the Q-Jet on it.. I'm a modifed Cadillac guy that needs some help putting fuel injection on a 365 Cadillac motor from 1957. How do we do this? Nothing off the shelf fits, everything will likely have to be made, need the how to best do this so it works and lasts. Plans are to put a turbo on this thing because.. I'm crazy? It's going to be a street car in every sense of the description, and be in a 1957 Cadillac.. so nothing that's going to set speed records. This is more about saying I can do it, doing it, and keeping a weird Cadillac motor in the car with modern upgrades to make it run nicer.

I've considered the Holley Terminator X or the Dominator (as I have a 4l80e behind it and would like to get rid of a box if I can - Compushift)

Do I need to run a camsync and a crank trigger? I'd like sequential injection if I can do it.
- I can modify a spare distributor or pull the timing cover, the cam gear, and drill a magnate into it, add the sensor to the front timing cover LS style.. Which works best?
- Cranktrigger, 58x style or flying magnet? I'd prefer not to move the crank pulley forward too much if I can - just a lot of headache.

Please let me know what you think!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
417 Posts
I would use a Dominator or Fueltech 600, as both are very capable of supporting this project and operating your trans. Buy an aluminum intake, and weld in bungs for 8 injectors, fuel rails, assuming you can't buy one already set up. 4 barrell throttle body with IAC valve and TPS on it, I like the FAST product but there are others. Going to need a crank sensor, for which I would do a 12-1 tooth wheel, or magnet wheel, behind the crank pulley. They're typically 1/4" thick, so you can space all accessories the same amount. Make sure to get a 3 wire Hall effect crank sensor, as the 2 wire MSD style one for use with their boxes won't work. If budget allows, ATI will make a custom damper with magnets wherever you'd like, but not sure if they make a damper for your engine. You can convert the stock distributor to be a cam sync, and still use it with a single coil and plug wires, or swap to coil on plug and the distributor is nothing but a cam sensor, afterwords. It's usually easier with an MSD style distributor, as the reluctor wheel is removable and you'll be cutting off 7 out of 8 teeth on it. And the sensor is compatible with the EFI systems, so there's no need for custom mounting one on a stock dizzy. Gotta keep your fuel pump submerged in fuel, as any drop in pressure will cause the engine to shut off, instantly. Modified stock tank with an enclosure to keep it covered at all times, or an external "Surge tank" that the pump lives in. I'd use a 450 walbro pump because they're quiet and it will very easily support your power level. Bypass fuel pressure regulator, as well. Aeromotive makes several choices and you can choose o-ring fittings or pipe thread. That should get you started, at least.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I would use a Dominator or Fueltech 600, as both are very capable of supporting this project and operating your trans. Buy an aluminum intake, and weld in bungs for 8 injectors, fuel rails, assuming you can't buy one already set up. 4 barrell throttle body with IAC valve and TPS on it, I like the FAST product but there are others. Going to need a crank sensor, for which I would do a 12-1 tooth wheel, or magnet wheel, behind the crank pulley. They're typically 1/4" thick, so you can space all accessories the same amount. Make sure to get a 3 wire Hall effect crank sensor, as the 2 wire MSD style one for use with their boxes won't work. If budget allows, ATI will make a custom damper with magnets wherever you'd like, but not sure if they make a damper for your engine. You can convert the stock distributor to be a cam sync, and still use it with a single coil and plug wires, or swap to coil on plug and the distributor is nothing but a cam sensor, afterwords. It's usually easier with an MSD style distributor, as the reluctor wheel is removable and you'll be cutting off 7 out of 8 teeth on it. And the sensor is compatible with the EFI systems, so there's no need for custom mounting one on a stock dizzy. Gotta keep your fuel pump submerged in fuel, as any drop in pressure will cause the engine to shut off, instantly. Modified stock tank with an enclosure to keep it covered at all times, or an external "Surge tank" that the pump lives in. I'd use a 450 walbro pump because they're quiet and it will very easily support your power level. Bypass fuel pressure regulator, as well. Aeromotive makes several choices and you can choose o-ring fittings or pipe thread. That should get you started, at least.

Thanks for the replies! It's an odd ball motor so most things dont exist for this thing. Part of the fun? I picked up an old dual quad intake (cast) that I thought I may convert to weld in bungs and make it blow though with x2 throttle bodies for twin turbos (though I'm not sure how well that will work out). I'm also considering making a sheet metal intake from scratch.

The info on the crank sensor and the cam sync is exactly what I needed. I called ATI about a month ago, and due to the state of the world they aren't making custom hubs for their dampeners now. I've considered drilling the dampener at the machine shop to add x4 magnets into it like the MSD stuff? The balancer has an outer cast iron piece, and a hub. Between the two are sandwiched pieces of elastomeric rubber, so I think it would be ok to drill into.

I'd like to run coil near plug, so the distributor stuff is helpful. Timing cover mount = no go?

I modified the fuel tank a few years back to make it an in tank pump and have a walboro 450. The fuel line is -6 to and from the FPR and tank, and I may want to run E85, so I may want to convert it to -8? Or is -6 fine for the 500~700 HP level?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19,149 Posts
You can probably easily adapt a crank trigger wheel from many other applications by just machining the crank trigger wheel itself or using an aluminum adapter that fits between the stock damper and the wheel. The hardest part would be getting the 3 or 4 bolts required aligned for bolting it on.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Qua-Hoon

·
Registered
Joined
·
417 Posts
I would think you could have steel injector bungs made and weld them into a cast iron intake manifold, no problem. And if budget allows for two throttle bodies, no harm in having them on a dual quad style intake. Super overkill for the airflow requirements, but it won't hurt anything, I guess.

I would be very scared of running a stock balancer on this with any serious power or RPM increase. And drilling into it would be a huge no no in my opinion. They blow apart when new and untouched if asked to do more work than stock, so IMHO if you're going to run it or maybe if it's your only option, do not try to modify it. Maybe buy an ATI balancer and have a machine shop make a hub for you? Much easier to space everything forward .250" and use a premade wheel. Yes, you can use the old 4 magnet stuff but the EFI system will be happier with a 12-1 wheel. This way it only uses the cam signal on startup to establish compression stroke and afterwords ignores it. Simply more reliable.

Yes, you can mount the cam position sensor in the timing cover if you'd like to go to all the extra work to mount a magnet or extra trigger wheel to the cam sprocket, and mount the sensor in the cover, but you'll probably need to keep the distributor to run the oil pump, anyways, and its already there, so.... I'd be more interested in buying a damper from ATI and have a good machine shop modify the hub or make a new one to mount it to your crankshaft. Keeping the balancer from blowing apart as well as having a good crank sensor signal, which is 10,000 times more important than the cam sync.

I would bump to a -8 feed line for e85, as your volume will increase substantially. Any idea what this engine will put up with? Low boost levels can easily double power output. There are probably limited choices for things like upgraded rods and pistons, as well. Might want to look at what the stock crank and block will put up with, as well. Again, where would you get upgraded pieces?

I've done some whacky projects like this for some good customers in the past, but it usually ends up being very expensive if it's going to live more than an afternoon. Keep us posted.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I would think you could have steel injector bungs made and weld them into a cast iron intake manifold, no problem. And if budget allows for two throttle bodies, no harm in having them on a dual quad style intake. Super overkill for the airflow requirements, but it won't hurt anything, I guess.

I would be very scared of running a stock balancer on this with any serious power or RPM increase. And drilling into it would be a huge no no in my opinion. They blow apart when new and untouched if asked to do more work than stock, so IMHO if you're going to run it or maybe if it's your only option, do not try to modify it. Maybe buy an ATI balancer and have a machine shop make a hub for you? Much easier to space everything forward .250" and use a premade wheel. Yes, you can use the old 4 magnet stuff but the EFI system will be happier with a 12-1 wheel. This way it only uses the cam signal on startup to establish compression stroke and afterwords ignores it. Simply more reliable.

Yes, you can mount the cam position sensor in the timing cover if you'd like to go to all the extra work to mount a magnet or extra trigger wheel to the cam sprocket, and mount the sensor in the cover, but you'll probably need to keep the distributor to run the oil pump, anyways, and its already there, so.... I'd be more interested in buying a damper from ATI and have a good machine shop modify the hub or make a new one to mount it to your crankshaft. Keeping the balancer from blowing apart as well as having a good crank sensor signal, which is 10,000 times more important than the cam sync.

I would bump to a -8 feed line for e85, as your volume will increase substantially. Any idea what this engine will put up with? Low boost levels can easily double power output. There are probably limited choices for things like upgraded rods and pistons, as well. Might want to look at what the stock crank and block will put up with, as well. Again, where would you get upgraded pieces?

I've done some whacky projects like this for some good customers in the past, but it usually ends up being very expensive if it's going to live more than an afternoon. Keep us posted.
Thanks for the input on the stock balancer. After I wrote that I thought.. yeaa. maybe not so good. 331,365,390 Cadillac is all weird stuff with near zero aftermarket. I may have to just get a shop to make the hub.

The stock intakes for 365 Cadillacs are garbage. The aluminum ones flow poorly too but cost around $3k for classic pieces when they get on the market. The dual quad setup were used on Eldorados, and suposedly they ran well. I'm hoping running boost to both throttle-bodies on the dual quad will get me something close decent. I'm trying to make it look more like a dealer option from the 50's / 60's.

The info about cam sync and 12-1 wheel is great, thanks. This is why I'm asking this stuff here. I stopped researching the fuel injection stuff for this build a few years ago and only have old knowledge.

I'll likely change the supply to -8 feed for piece of mind. I make mine mostly out of stainless hard line as it's under the car and for the ability to use E85 if I want to with less flexline to replace as it ages.

This engine was rebuilt about 8 years ago and has barely run because it never ran well. The shop that rebuilt it did the assembly as I was about to move for work. A few weeks ago I pulled the heads off so I could get some things done for the next stage of boost / fuel injection build. I'm not sure the cam was degreed correctly too. I also needed to pull the oil pan for the turbo drains to be added (I didn't think of that when I got the engine rebuilt). I had the heads upgraded to stainless valves and bronze liners during the last rebuild, but the valves weren't sealing well, and we found that they were very soft with pitting already.. so another set of valves.

There is a Cadillac specific shop in Albuquerque (Flashcraft / Cad 500) that I got some forged H-beams and forged dished pistons for the engine. Engine was balanced, added studs to the mains and line honed. I may try to get custom head studs made for it with the heads off as these are 1957 original head bolts.

I think I got the annoying stuff done to make it reliably take boost. Planning on around 10 psi most of the time. Maybe I'll get stupid with it later and push it to 15? Wanted to keep the Cadillac motor in the Cadillac but make it unique. This makes it Challenging which I enjoy honestly. Thanks for the help so far!
Wheel Tire Car Vehicle Hood
 

·
The Liquor Makes Me Think
Joined
·
3,458 Posts
Looks like the sniper system has come a long way too. Are these now sort of the better FITECH? I had a FITECH on it and wasnt impressed. I also want to run coil near plug so I dont have to rely on a distributor for timing that is also rare.
The sniper does have timing control but i dont think they do CNP.
You just need to lock the distributor out and then tell the holley when to retard timing.
 
1 - 9 of 9 Posts
Top