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So ya wanna know about 351 Clevelands?

3M views 159K replies 310 participants last post by  BLUEOVALRACER 
#1 ·
The following is probably the best dissertation of the design parameters built into Ford’s poly angle cylinder heads and lots of other relative information on the basic engine design which serves even today as the pinnacle of automotive pushrod V8 engine design.

Interestingly the author (George Pence) provides these well researched columns from both the perspective of having actually built Cleveland’s and interviews from its original designers. At the same time he points and gives credit to the Chrysler as the inventors of the “poly” combustion chamber. He states later that both Chevrolet and Ford copied this design for their later engines.

I’m sure this will touch off a firestorm of anti Ford sentiment but I don’t give a phuck really.

I’ll use the train wreck of the other thread about Coyote blocks of all things as inspiration to provide good information about Ford engines. I feel bad for the OP of that thread and the folks that designed and built the Coyote block. That should’ve been what the thread was about. The thread killers put an end to that as they always do.

So read if you wish, or don’t I don’t care. Y’all chivolay boys can throw everything ya got at me over here. (Frankly y’all outta gas anyways)

Lastly my hat is off to George Pence. This information is brilliant and we’ll written.

Enjoy!

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/cle...ml?sid=bd5208229edcf188809aa03b06ca203b&amp=1
 
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#121 ·
Back when I was in jr High I had a friend whos father had a mint Pantera with a 351 in it. His parents went on a weekend vacation and he was left at home. He thought he would be cool to blow the dust off it while they were gone. He came by my place to show it off that Saturday morning then went out for a few laps around the neighborhood. I could hear him doing burnouts in it. About 10 mins later he comes back but now on his bicycle. He said he needed help as the "engine just shut off" and the car was a few blocks from his house. We went over there and I told him to start it... sounded like hammers and steel. I went back and snuck my moms ford escort wagon so we could pull it back with a rope. we had a few other friends with us now and we pushed it back into the garage. he put the car cover over it and made it look like it had not moved. His dad was not pleased 3 weeks later when he went to take it out for his first summer cruise. I did not see my friend much that summer LOL
Soooo, a 351 Cleveland that ran great...until it blew up. Color me shocked!
 
#122 ·
And the 1970 LT1 was 370 HP. Pretty obvious that Chevy was the king of making power from 350 cubic inches back then........by a long shot.
You mean the overrated 1970 LT1 353 Horsepower and 392 lb.ft. of Torque!!!:rolleyes:
Boss 351 383 Horsepower and 391 lb.ft. of Torque!!:)

2010 Hot Rod Magazine Muscle Car Small Block Showdown Ford vs Chevy!!!

Better stick to your Mopar facts Mopar Boy!!:p
 
#123 ·
I’ve been a Cleveland fan for decades and have raced them n broke them. Been 9.80’s with one with a shot of Nitrous with a street/strip car. Been low 10’s NA. Tim Halstead has been well into the 9’s with a 351C block. My next combo for my Stick Class car is an old school 351C block n iron headed CC 4V combo. Just because I always wanted one n I can. I don’t talk about the 351C being superior or anything. Just doing it because back in the 80’s there wasn’t much aftermarket for Fords n I couldn’t afford it anyway. Just doing what I always wanted to do. Solid roller 351C, decent 4 speed with adjustable clutch n a tall gear in the car with a legit tag on it. Ya only live once....
Tim's been 9.60's N/A with a filled 2 bolt block!!!:)
 
#125 ·
You mean the overrated 1970 LT1 353 Horsepower and 392 lb.ft. of Torque!!!:rolleyes:
Boss 351 383 Horsepower and 391 lb.ft. of Torque!!:)

2010 Hot Rod Magazine Muscle Car Small Block Showdown Ford vs Chevy!!!

Better stick to your Mopar facts Mopar Boy!!:p
This......that contest was a all Ford affair.
Chevy won one by using a 327 vs 289.
No 283 or any mopar......
 
#129 ·
Back in the very early '80's I started racing with some friends who had a circle track car. '67 Merc Cougar with our version of a '70 Boss Cleveland. by rules had to run a pretty stock motor by today's standards. Very well put together with a little more cam than stock, Edelbrock torqer intake and 750 DP Holley. When know then all the faults with the heads you guys speak up now but it did not matter, That Cleveland would run with ANYTHING that showed it self at our local pavement or dirt track. Don't fool your selves, a Boss Cleveland can make plenty of power with out a lot of aftermarket parts, and that's a fact. I don't fool with SBF's and more and would never go back to them but those Clevelands were the shit for a little while anyway.
Don't go bringing facts in here!!!:)
 
#130 ·
If it werent for the heads the engine is junk, four bolt caps that just have a skin tag as an outer bolt hole, cast crank, the engine could have been good, but was not, if it had the bottom end the small block chev had it WOULD have been superior, but alas was not to be, weak ass bottom end on a top notch set of heads, lots of problems, too small a displacement for too large a head, a weak bottom end that could not support what the heads offered. However with todays support it can be made stout, but then it becomes aftermarket and not FORD.
All true statements. The head up the ass oiling system is a disaster to behold. Please, any ford boys, look at that design and say you want to offer blind support to this engineering group. But this is why, to racers of that era, running a ford made no sense from a design and/or price standpoint. Back in the Cleveland’s day, a racer actually needed to know what he was doing. What were YOU going to do with an engine that needed to rev to take advantage of that enormous port area but had an oiling system you couldn’t safely take over 5500? Weak blocks, cast cranks/rods etc.These were all characteristics of ford designs. Don’t give me Bob Glidden either. The guy was a genius. Hell, he had to be! BTW when is the last time you have heard of a sbc block breaking?


Why would anyone put their own money into products that appeared to be designed to fail? Remember - little to no aftermarket support. Chevy OR ford. I always felt that Chevrolet was the racers friend. Just drive over to your local Chevy dealer - any dealer and order a forged, tuffrided crank, forged rods, pistons cams all available for a cash wholesale price. Ford NEVER did this. They never supported their fan base. Want hi-po parts? You can only buy them from Holman-Moody or 2 or 3 other ford outlets at full retail price. Ford spent millions of dollars to win LeMans. Terrific. Helluva an accomplishment but very little filtered down to average racers. They totally pissed away their investment and left their loyal customers holding their ass. The aftermarket completely saved ford performance.
 
#133 ·
All true statements. The head up the ass oiling system is a disaster to behold. Please, any ford boys, look at that design and say you want to offer blind support to this engineering group. But this is why, to racers of that era, running a ford made no sense from a design and/or price standpoint. Back in the Cleveland’s day, a racer actually needed to know what he was doing. What were YOU going to do with an engine that needed to rev to take advantage of that enormous port area but had an oiling system you couldn’t safely take over 5500? Weak blocks, cast cranks/rods etc.These were all characteristics of ford designs. Don’t give me Bob Glidden either. The guy was a genius. Hell, he had to be! BTW when is the last time you have heard of a sbc block breaking?


Why would anyone put their own money into products that appeared to be designed to fail? Remember - little to no aftermarket support. Chevy OR ford. I always felt that Chevrolet was the racers friend. Just drive over to your local Chevy dealer - any dealer and order a forged, tuffrided crank, forged rods, pistons cams all available for a cash wholesale price. Ford NEVER did this. They never supported their fan base. Want hi-po parts? You can only buy them from Holman-Moody or 2 or 3 other ford outlets at full retail price. Ford spent millions of dollars to win LeMans. Terrific. Helluva an accomplishment but very little filtered down to average racers. They totally pissed away their investment and left their loyal customers holding their ass. The aftermarket completely saved ford performance.
I don't see the problem really. If you wanted to make the Cleveland go, you did a couple of things to keep them together. Like every fucking racer does. The potential of the Clevo is beyond argument.

The aftermarket did fuck all for Ford. They've never had the support Chevy has.

I think its funny how guys discount Glidden as some sort of freak. He was a genius all right but there's a reason he used the Cleveland.

Ford has never really looked after it's performance fans. Changing engines all the fucking time. Never sticking with anything and really developing it. That's why racers use so much Chevy shit. It's been the same for years and any idiot can benefit from the countless hours of development and combination testing that has been done by others. Ford guys had to do their own. Always the underdog for some reason or another. That's why they're cooler. :cool:
 
#140 ·
You Fordophiles hang your hat on the Glidden/Cleveland combo.

Lets not forget he did arguably BETTER in a Plymouth Arrow in '79 winning 9 straight races and a Championship in a Mopar. He never even lost a round until June of that year!
What was the arrows best ET, I once read .1 slower than the clevelands best ET. I may be wrong on that though.

And he was with mopar for how long?

Either way, I guess the old mopar X and J heads werent that much of a turd vs the clevo heads.
 
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