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Old 08-22-2019, 10:57 AM   #5926
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Default Re: Pro Stock Tech

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Originally Posted by NGNBLDR View Post
Tom,

I don't get, so explain why you would want to do all of that? What you said above is completely contradictory. You first said you spin stuff at 250-500 rpm with a very very light inner spring. Then in the next sentence you said, that's how you figure out max lift using actual components. That doesn't make sense to me!?!?!?!? Using a very very soft spring isn't one of the actual components???? Ya, I agree that all those components you listed above do change ratio. But all those components need to be setup right when designing and building an engine from the start.

I understand everything that your guys are trying to do but what I can't figure out is why? I guess I can make a rocker arm so stiff for measuring purposes so there is no deflection. I'll make a solid pushrod made out of beryllium so I know I have absolutely no flex. I'll take out my Ti valves and stick in steel valves to eliminate any deflection on the stem and I'll then tighten up my guide clearance for a more accurate measurement. So after doing all of that and now mocking everything up and measuring my gross net lift. What do I do then? I then will realize that my new found no flex system has lets say .030, .040 or even .050 more lift than the actual parts that I am realistically going to run. So what do I do with that information?

I know that there is a "pole vault" or "spring board" affect going on in my system. I know I will have loft in my system. But trying to figure out information that I admit is there, as you listed. I just don't see how to make that useful and here's why. Everyone knows you can't run a spring at zero coil bind or parts will break. The thing is not every application will run the same clearance from bind as other applications. My guess is that an everyday street car probably have very minimal bind cause a street car doesn't have or have very minimal "spring" affect in the system and or loft. Warp can verify this or not but I believe some NASCAR stuff has as minimal as .030 bind clearance. I've seen drag stuff vary from .070 to .150 and each spec all depends on the application. So I don't understand how is the time useful figuring out stuff that isn't practical in a running engine using all the parts that are in the engine.

Some rockers are much stiffer than others and same with the pushrods and that would even include cam cores. So why not just put the assembly together and see where the "pole vault" effect comes into play and see where surge comes in and where and how much loft is in the system? Then you change parts and bind clearances to see what combination works the best for that particular combination, right?

So back to my original question, how does doing all of stuff you guys describe change my end result?

Nick

Nick
The spintron peak lift value is a input value you enter. ( based on a measurement you took with the indicator, or in a perfect world lobe lift x rocker ratio - lash ) If your package has deflection or push rod angle sweep you will not know how much loss unless you minimize all or at least as much of it you can. That's how it establishes the max valve lift value based on laser at a set base rpm trace. This is how people get crossed up with a true "loft" value.

If the base line trace is displayed BUT in a deflection state the peak lift value is a deflection peak lift value and with rpm a greater shown trace is a lift value with deflection minimizing. At some point ALL deflection will be gone and a "loft" lift value will be displayed.

You can't determine that without a baseline trace with "0" deflection lift value inputted. Only way I found to establish that is with the least amount of spring in the actual spinning engine at very low engine speed.

Spring bind clearance from my experience is a way to dampen out unwanted spring surge initiated from the opening cycle. A happy system has way less of an issue so not much need for very tight coil bind clearance. I can manipulate the max lift curve by not stacking the spring so tight and still have enough on the seat. End result is my coil clearance.
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Old 08-22-2019, 08:39 PM   #5927
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So,.....in spring set up when considering how close to spring coil bind,....is spring harmonics no longer a consideration. Nobody has mentioned it???.......just curious.
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Old 08-23-2019, 10:31 AM   #5928
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Default Re: Pro Stock Tech

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Originally Posted by Ron Clevenger View Post
So,.....in spring set up when considering how close to spring coil bind,....is spring harmonics no longer a consideration. Nobody has mentioned it???.......just curious.
Ron, spring harmonics are a big part of it all. But unless you have a spin-tron it's really hard to really know what to do. Good rule of thumb is keeping the spring within a certain amount of coil bind and typically that will control things. Spring companies do a very good job in making sure that the coils have opposite harmonics or close to it anyways. By you asking the question, you know that there are harmonics with each and every part of the engine. Spinning a valve train also helps determine when all the harmonics come into play. the key is trying to keep them all away from one another cause when they all come into play at the same time. That's when parts can break and or have dips in the power curve...

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Old 08-23-2019, 11:06 AM   #5929
Ron Clevenger
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Originally Posted by NGNBLDR View Post
Ron, spring harmonics are a big part of it all. But unless you have a spin-tron it's really hard to really know what to do. Good rule of thumb is keeping the spring within a certain amount of coil bind and typically that will control things. Spring companies do a very good job in making sure that the coils have opposite harmonics or close to it anyways. By you asking the question, you know that there are harmonics with each and every part of the engine. Spinning a valve train also helps determine when all the harmonics come into play. the key is trying to keep them all away from one another cause when they all come into play at the same time. That's when parts can break and or have dips in the power curve...

Nick
Thanks, thought it was but just curious why it was not mentioned in any of the threads. Like ya say, when you don't have all that great equipment at hand you do the best you can.
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