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Old 09-02-2011, 12:28 PM   #1
HUMBLE PIE
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Default Has anyone here successfully tuned EFI Stack Injection?

I am looking for some real world experiences here-I have been doing my homework on putting Stack Injection on my Hot Rod, and I have run into some Posts on other Forums where people can't seem to them to work-the outlined problems are:

-the fact that they need different fuel curves because as the engine warms up, the butterflies-to-injector-tube clearances change.

-to run in speed-density mode you have to run eight seperate vacuum lines, and then they go to a small box which makes the MAP sensor too sensitive. It needs a plenum-

-hard to tune out the "popping", especially if you run a radical Cam-

-the compromises required to get it to just run-it won't run consistently, and you are always adjusting the tables-

-due to design of stack injection, hard to equalize air flow of air intake-

-if using a MAP based ECU the load will go straight up in the map table when the throttle is pressed-So, if the numbers in the fuel table are too low above where it idesl it will also go lean when throttled-

So, has anyone here have a great running, stack injected, EFI tuned, street driven unit? This would be used on a 540-


Please share your experiences-
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Old 09-02-2011, 12:41 PM   #2
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Default Re: Has anyone here successfully tuned EFI Stack Injection?

reach out to Andy @ Hilborn.
exactly what he has on his 55
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Old 09-02-2011, 12:48 PM   #3
Kevin Zaske
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Default Re: Has anyone here successfully tuned EFI Stack Injection?

I have had an independent runner intake on my 427 since 1980. Old Pete Jackson setup. Ran it constant flow with methanol on the street. Some NITRO once and awhile. Switched to EFI and gasoline in the early 90's. Picked up some tricks along the way and have it running really good. Clutch cars are tougher than automatics. If you are going to do it I will give you my phone number and I will see if I can give you some tips. I run mine Alpha-N. The farther the blades are away from the engine the more they move around. I set mine hot and running.
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Old 09-02-2011, 01:26 PM   #4
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Default Re: Has anyone here successfully tuned EFI Stack Injection?

The problem with EFI stack injection and alpha N tables, is the idle. With 8 blades and all that linkage, it rarely comes back to the same place twice. Speed Density will idle better and the easy way to do it, is to use the old fuel ports for vacumn. Bring those lines into a distribution block and run the MAP sensor off the block.

Had a customer in Florida, with a 540in, big block Mopar, with old Enderle stacks, converted to EFI. We had FAST on it. It ran great, started fine. Was in a 4200lb C-body Plymouth. Drive it to the track, click off some low 10s and drive it home.

Like I said, we had a FAST box on this car..........if I was doing it again, it would obviously be with the new HOLLEY EFI. You could run it closed loop and let the box run in "Learn" mode. It will constantly adjust the fuel table, as the car runs, to the target A/F. And if you just leave it in "learn" mode and never transfer the changes to the table permanently, it should work great.

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Old 09-02-2011, 09:44 PM   #5
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Default Re: Has anyone here successfully tuned EFI Stack Injection?

My hands on experience is tuning Trevor Wiggins Super Comp dragster with a Hilborn setup and Holley Dominator. Of course this isn't a "street car". Once we got the bank to bank synced (which took a bit and is key), the thing xerox's time slips. The cylinder to cylinder at WOT is as perfect as the injectors are matched (pretty much perfect). The idle vacuum on this engine with a very large cam (somewhat max effort conv headed BBC) was like 60 kPa at 1000 RPM. LOTs of vacuum. Yes, things move as it heats up. I'd run an IAC on a street car with all 8 attached if it was mine to help that. This engine was speed density and is the only way I'd run one of these.

I'd likely never buy some old worn out IR setup as getting things synced could be a PITA. Get a new one and go from there. I worked with Andy on Trevor's car. He can answer mechanical questions on it.

In my mind it is the "best" intake manifold as it removes cylinder to cylinder reversion and distribution issues. Just a little more complicated, but worth the trouble IMO if a person has the right mentallity towards using it (same mentality needed for EFI), which isn't someone that slams stuff together.
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Old 09-02-2011, 11:47 PM   #6
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Default Re: Has anyone here successfully tuned EFI Stack Injection?

I'm running the exact same setup as Trevor (the Hilborn IR) and am just about to move to the Holley box (from the FAST box) as soon as Doug can get me the box Yes, you can definitely tune the thing right, and yes it can run well. We're in open loop mode now, because the FAST box can't do closed loop the way it needs to be. We're not xeroxing time slips yet, but will be soon. It has been a long process getting it there, but it's well worth it.
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Old 09-03-2011, 12:05 AM   #7
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Default Re: Has anyone here successfully tuned EFI Stack Injection?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monte Smith View Post
The problem with EFI stack injection and alpha N tables, is the idle. With 8 blades and all that linkage, it rarely comes back to the same place twice. Speed Density will idle better and the easy way to do it, is to use the old fuel ports for vacumn. Bring those lines into a distribution block and run the MAP sensor off the block.

Had a customer in Florida, with a 540in, big block Mopar, with old Enderle stacks, converted to EFI. We had FAST on it. It ran great, started fine. Was in a 4200lb C-body Plymouth. Drive it to the track, click off some low 10s and drive it home.

Like I said, we had a FAST box on this car..........if I was doing it again, it would obviously be with the new HOLLEY EFI. You could run it closed loop and let the box run in "Learn" mode. It will constantly adjust the fuel table, as the car runs, to the target A/F. And if you just leave it in "learn" mode and never transfer the changes to the table permanently, it should work great.

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Old 09-03-2011, 10:10 AM   #8
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Default Re: Has anyone here successfully tuned EFI Stack Injection?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tenfiveracer View Post
Monte knows his shit, and is 100% correct .
So, you run an I/R intake on the street with a stick that Monte has set up for you in Speed Density and IAC controls and a hefty camshaft?
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Old 09-03-2011, 07:41 PM   #9
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Default Re: Has anyone here successfully tuned EFI Stack Injection?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monte Smith View Post
The problem with EFI stack injection and alpha N tables, is the idle. With 8 blades and all that linkage, it rarely comes back to the same place twice. Speed Density will idle better and the easy way to do it, is to use the old fuel ports for vacumn. Bring those lines into a distribution block and run the MAP sensor off the block.

Had a customer in Florida, with a 540in, big block Mopar, with old Enderle stacks, converted to EFI. We had FAST on it. It ran great, started fine. Was in a 4200lb C-body Plymouth. Drive it to the track, click off some low 10s and drive it home.

Like I said, we had a FAST box on this car..........if I was doing it again, it would obviously be with the new HOLLEY EFI. You could run it closed loop and let the box run in "Learn" mode. It will constantly adjust the fuel table, as the car runs, to the target A/F. And if you just leave it in "learn" mode and never transfer the changes to the table permanently, it should work great.

Monte
Monte (and everyone),

Thank you very much for your replies! I had planned to use the old fuel ports for vacuum (as you suggested)-I can buy a new Enderle set-up (with the bosses cast in for machining for Injectors). Again, I have heard that the distribution block was too small, which caused the MAP to be very sensitive-have you experienced that? Again, this is a street deal, (and a cruiser), so I am looking for some manners-

I wonder if an IAC can be fitted-anyone know? I am planning to use the Holley Dominator on it, as I am also running a 4L80E-Hilborn offers only FAST, and as good of a system as that is, I think I want the Holley, which makes it a bit more complicated, as I will need Tech help to get started.

Anyone else have any comments? Thanks again-

Last edited by HUMBLE PIE; 09-03-2011 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 09-03-2011, 07:42 PM   #10
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Default Re: Has anyone here successfully tuned EFI Stack Injection?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Zaske View Post
So, you run an I/R intake on the street with a stick that Monte has set up for you in Speed Density and IAC controls and a hefty camshaft?

I am under the impression that a radical cam is much harder to tune with an I/R setup-can anyone verify this?
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Old 09-03-2011, 08:28 PM   #11
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Default Re: Has anyone here successfully tuned EFI Stack Injection?

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Originally Posted by HUMBLE PIE View Post
Hilborn offers only FAST, and as good of a system as that is, I think I want the Holley, which makes it a bit more complicated, as I will need Tech help to get started.
I believe that is no longer the case, it is my understanding that Hilborn just inked a deal to also carry the Holley box. Call Andy at Hilborn EFI and chat with him next week. Great guy, will be more than happy to help you get going.
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Old 09-04-2011, 10:17 AM   #12
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Default Re: Has anyone here successfully tuned EFI Stack Injection?

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Originally Posted by HUMBLE PIE View Post
I am under the impression that a radical cam is much harder to tune with an I/R setup-can anyone verify this?

What I see is you lose vacum, same as with any intake. I use an early DFI so that meant I would lose some of my map if I used speed density. That is why I went Alpha-Numeric. I think the new EFI software allows you to increase resolution on specific areas of the map. My throttle control is very stable and always seats back to idle, no problem. I have stops on both sides, splitters for the shafts and the TPS arm is next to the stop. I have a pretty good size plenum under the intake in the valley that connects the runners to soften the pulses some. Good luck and BTW Andy Star at Hilborn is a great source of info and is into the I/R stuff.
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Old 09-04-2011, 01:50 PM   #13
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Default Re: Has anyone here successfully tuned EFI Stack Injection?

I have to agree w/ a lot of what has already been posted. I just set up a Hilborn IR/ FAST (Speed Pro C Com WP) speed density system on a BBC. The old C Com is pretty slow processor speed compared to the updated versions but the base principles are the same.

Like has been posted, need a vacuum manifold that draws signal from each runner into a central body that sensor readings can be taken from. Mechanically, throttle blade position/ angle are critical to making it work and if they change everything else gets goofy. Make sure shafts are free, don't bind and that bank to bank flow rates are the same. TP sensor on one throttle shaft only so this is really important.

I had to start by setting fuel tables based on vacuum/ pressure then monitored lambda to fine tune.

By establishing base fuel/ timing maps, then working with the individual parameters such as fuel and timing vs. throttle angle/ temp/ etc. you can get a really good calibration.

Get in and play and you'll get the hang of it.

Good luck.
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Old 09-06-2011, 11:13 AM   #14
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Default Re: Has anyone here successfully tuned EFI Stack Injection?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Zaske View Post
What I see is you lose vacum, same as with any intake. I use an early DFI so that meant I would lose some of my map if I used speed density. That is why I went Alpha-Numeric. I think the new EFI software allows you to increase resolution on specific areas of the map. My throttle control is very stable and always seats back to idle, no problem. I have stops on both sides, splitters for the shafts and the TPS arm is next to the stop. I have a pretty good size plenum under the intake in the valley that connects the runners to soften the pulses some. Good luck and BTW Andy Star at Hilborn is a great source of info and is into the I/R stuff.
Kevin, Thanks for you response-I will talk to Andy-where did you get the plenum for you Intake?

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Old 09-06-2011, 11:16 AM   #15
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Default Re: Has anyone here successfully tuned EFI Stack Injection?

Thanks to all who have contributed on this-I have some work to do-Jon Kaase recently started to offer a Boss nine Intake with a plenum underneath-I wonder why the stack injection companies (Hilborn, Kinsler, Enderle) don't?

http://www.jonkaaseracingengines.com...article&id=229
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