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Old 06-24-2019, 09:07 PM   #1
slo-poke
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Default Blowing fuses after going to 16V

Need a little help. After swapping to 16V the supply fuse, 25amp, for the nitrous relay (between battery and relay) is now blowing about 3/4 of the way through the pass. The only change is moving from 12v to 16v, no alternator with either setup. It has done it twice, the first time I thought it was a loose connection, but it happened again on the next pass, all wiring inspected and no damages found. Will be separating wiring to check coils, just wanted to see if anyone may have had a similar issue.

NOS Launcher wired up per the wiring instructions on an IS X275 fogger. Unit worked flawlessly with the 12v set up for 2 years.
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Old 06-24-2019, 09:16 PM   #2
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Default Re: Blowing fuses after going to 16V

First thing you should do is look for heat, caused by too small wire, or poor connections at or near the fuse. Second, get a good meter and measure the draw on the circuit. No idea what the solenoid(s) are supposed to draw, you are just guessing in the dark


Ohm's law applies: More voltage through a DC load like a solenoid = more current As a solenoid warms up from activation, the copper changes resistance and the current changes. Current should actually become LESS as the solenoid warms
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Old 06-24-2019, 11:19 PM   #3
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Default Re: Blowing fuses after going to 16V

The 16v setup will pull ~+33% more current.

How many noids are you running?
As RR stated check the coils resistance and the fuel noid should be
Higher resistance/less amps than the N2O noid which has to open
against much higher pressure.

Probly need to upgrade to a 35 or 40 amp fuse.
There on for such a short time I doubt the wire will heat up but
it is possible you need a bigger wire if you under sized it at the beginning.

Ohms divided into the 16 volts gives you a rough idea of the amps.
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Old 06-25-2019, 10:56 AM   #4
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Default Re: Blowing fuses after going to 16V

Thanks for the help guys, I'll be digging into it a little further this afternoon.

Running 4 noids total, 2 nitrous and 2 fuel.

It has 10 gauge wire, that should be sufficient.
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Old 06-25-2019, 04:11 PM   #5
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Default Re: Blowing fuses after going to 16V

25 amps isn't much for 4 solenoids.

I would also look more closely at the fuse holder and relay terminals. Those amp loads and spikes can take their toll on the small terminals used on many of them. I like the larger 60/70 amp relays for nitrous systems specifically because of the larger terminals that they use.

If you are using an ATO or mini style fuse holder, the small terminals in them can also be suspect. I prefer mini ANL or Maxi type fuses but have also used multiple ATC's to spread the load out.
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Old 06-26-2019, 10:28 AM   #6
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Default Re: Blowing fuses after going to 16V

If you have our X 275 system with our .125 solenoids it will draw around 45 amps total. You will need a stronger fuse/set up.
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Old 06-26-2019, 12:01 PM   #7
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Default Re: Blowing fuses after going to 16V

You got something going bad in the system , if it worked with 12 volt it should be less amps at 16 the higher voltage is bringing it to light now
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Old 06-27-2019, 11:06 AM   #8
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Default Re: Blowing fuses after going to 16V

Quote:
Originally Posted by vegaman924 View Post
You got something going bad in the system , if it worked with 12 volt it should be less amps at 16 the higher voltage is bringing it to light now
Not according to Ohm's law.. Ohm's law states that the electrical current (I) flowing in an circuit is proportional to the voltage (V) and inversely proportional to the resistance (R). Therefore, if the voltage is increased, the current will increase provided the resistance of the circuit does not change.
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Old 06-27-2019, 11:54 AM   #9
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Default Re: Blowing fuses after going to 16V

I disagree^
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Old 06-27-2019, 01:41 PM   #10
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Default Re: Blowing fuses after going to 16V

In industrial 3 phase electric use, a 240 volt motor uses twice as much amperage as the same horsepower 480 volt motor, and a 480 motor is more efficient as far as energy cost. If a 5 HP 480 motor uses 7.5 amps, a 240 volt will use 15 amps. (Higher voltage = lower amperage use.)
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Old 06-27-2019, 02:26 PM   #11
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Default Re: Blowing fuses after going to 16V

JFC, Ohm's Law people: Volts = Amps times Resistance, or V = IR

Look at the equation → If V goes up and R (the solenoid) stays the same, where do you think I (amps) goes?

V/R = I, does that make it clearer? There are no 3 phase motors in a car so the above does not apply, not even on a Chrysler 220 volt dash from the early 60's.

Next lesson will be parallel circuits for those wiring the fuel and NOS solenoids into pairs from a single feed.
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Old 06-27-2019, 02:57 PM   #12
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Default Re: Blowing fuses after going to 16V

give us the lesson you speak of on a parallel circuit. my nos mini controls 2 channels of 40 amps each. 5 solenoids total. wired one bank together using a 30amp relay, the other bank using a 30 amp relay-both relays triggered by switch panel. switch panel relay turns on nos mini, as well as purge noid and turns on relays for each bank. noid draw on each bank is roughly 15 amps. wired all my noids using 12awg wire and the grounds go into a single 12awg I believe and into the nos mini box. worked good first time out-no issues. wondering what sized fuse I should wire in though. was originally thinking 20amps should be fine but not sure.

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Old 06-27-2019, 05:44 PM   #13
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Default Re: Blowing fuses after going to 16V

Having seen that theoretical values rarely line up with reality too many times, I decided to do a little bench testing. Now, my testing equipment is far from high end and the procedure was probably a little sketchy.

But, I grabbed a couple spare solenoids, multimeter, and DC clamp meter and went to it. I started out measuring resistance vs voltage vs amps, but soon realized that everything changed once power was applied. Doing short bursts of about 5 seconds, the amp draws were all over the place. Then I checked the resistance of the coils again, and the resistance had rose significantly from the baseline readings and then come back inline as they cooled. Now, I'm sure that they wouldn't have heated up as fast if they had flow through them but they would still heat up throughout the run.

So the conclusion from my half-assed testing is that you can't conclude anything from the baseline resistance or the math. One the run is underway, you can throw all those values out the door.
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Old 06-27-2019, 09:41 PM   #14
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Default Re: Blowing fuses after going to 16V

What most really need to consider when getting into this type of discussion is
we need to break the power unit down a bit further to Watts as watts are really
what the total power requirement is that we end up with at the end of the day
for practical purposes of discussion..

Once you understand watts and how it is arrived at the rest makes more sense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vegaman924 View Post
I disagree^
It is really quite easy, The ohms on the coils have stayed the same and the voltage
we are applying has increased so the amps will most definitely increase...
the coils could be redesigned with a higher resistance to work with the higher voltage and have a reduced amp draw but that is not the case here.

Because of the higher voltage the noids may open faster and more reliably,
I would imagine if one was running a progressive N2O set up the percentages
and HZ numbers would need be different for 12v tuneup vs. 16v tuneup.



Quote:
Originally Posted by bigblockmark View Post
In industrial 3 phase electric use, a 240 volt motor uses twice as much amperage as the same horsepower 480 volt motor, and a 480 motor is more efficient as far as energy cost. If a 5 HP 480 motor uses 7.5 amps, a 240 volt will use 15 amps. (Higher voltage = lower amperage use.)
This^^^^is a common misconception that 480v less amps is more economical to run
vs. 240v higher amps but it simply is not true....The total required amount of watts needed to run the motor is the same either way....the only savings are in the fact that a smaller gauge wire can be used in the 480v set up over the 240v higher amp/bigger needed wire configuration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juiced coupe 78 View Post
Having seen that theoretical values rarely line up with reality too many times, I decided to do a little bench testing. Now, my testing equipment is far from high end and the procedure was probably a little sketchy.

But, I grabbed a couple spare solenoids, multimeter, and DC clamp meter and went to it. I started out measuring resistance vs voltage vs amps, but soon realized that everything changed once power was applied. Doing short bursts of about 5 seconds, the amp draws were all over the place. Then I checked the resistance of the coils again, and the resistance had rose significantly from the baseline readings and then come back inline as they cooled. Now, I'm sure that they wouldn't have heated up as fast if they had flow through them but they would still heat up throughout the run.

So the conclusion from my half-assed testing is that you can't conclude anything from the baseline resistance or the math. One the run is underway, you can throw all those values out the door.
And this^^^^^is normal as components wires and core temperature changes their resistance changes and their ability for electrons to flow changes and this is why you are seeing the amp draws change.....But More voltage applied to the same load
will flow more current and therefore more Watts.

Its the same concept as a light bulb....I have a light bulb with 100 volts on it
and then increase the voltage to 130 volts it will be brighter because it is doing more
work due to the extra voltage being applied to it and then the extra amperage flowing
through it. Carry on Gents.
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Old 06-27-2019, 10:20 PM   #15
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Default Re: Blowing fuses after going to 16V

Put 16v fuses in lol........
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