sparatic starting issue

[DOTracer]

The last few years I've been plauged with a sparatic slow start/crank issue. I once thought my 10 year old starter was giving up, but a new one did the same thing as well.

The car will just crank real slow, then fire off after some time cranking. Sounds like the battery is dead, or almost dead.

Last summer I took the battery in and they told me it was almost completely discharged. I later found my Powermaster 1 wire large case GM alternator wasn't cgarging well at idle. I changed the pulley sizes around to get the ratio as recommended and now idle charging is improved.

Now, back to the battery. The battery supplier told me to take the battery home and charge it on 10 amps for x amount of time, then bring it back to be load tested again. I did so and it tested like new providing 1100+ CCA on a 1000CCA rated battery. The battery was new in 2005.

The problem surfaced today at the track. I'd charge between rounds and severa times it started fine, a few others struggled again. I then towed home and when i got home it started no problems at all. Very sparatic.

I don't believe it's temperature related as it was very cold today in the mid 40's and the engine wasn't even getting much warmer than 160 and the ceramic coated headers cooled very quickly. I doubt it's a heat soak issue witht he starter.

I think it could be a couple things.

My data logger shows the voltage during the run to be high 14 to low 15 volt range. Is this regulated too high? and could that damage the battery cells? If so, could it still load test fine, yet not have any reserve capacity?

Or could the "Ford" style starter solenoid in the trunk be going bad (15 years old). The solenoid does NOT go through the cut-off switch. Current comes from the battery to the solenoid, then directly to the starter.

Is there a good quality solenoid out there? This one was one of the "Summit" house brand.

Of course, could it be the bettery itself? I can take it to load test this week, but I have a suspicion it will load test fine just like last year.

Trying to minimize spending money replacing parts and not solving the issue.

I forgot to take my Fluke meter to the track today or I would have taken some voltage readings during cranking, idle charging, etc.

thanks for any suggestions.
Todd

[RRRAAAYYY2]

If you are using the slenoid to start the start, I would suspect that it has burned the disc up inside. They are not expensive, like $15.00 for a good one. I would replace it, then smash your old one so you can inspect the disc and contacts inside. If they are burned badly, you know you have solved the problem. If not we can look at some other things. But at 15 years, it is due regardless, so it is not a waste of money.

[DOTracer]

Thanks Ray. Are there better brands out there. I can go to a local auto parts store to buy a new solenoid, but need to know what application and what brand is good quality.

The style I have.



thanks
Todd

[Ohiomafia]

If you want to save some money...take the ford solenoid out of the trunk and pitch it. There is not a single reason to run one. Re route your battery cable from the main kill switch directly to the starter...check all your grounds....make sure all connections are tight and corrosion free. If it is not already done, put a ground strap on the motor and/or starter.

As far as the battery...I personally buy a cheap 69.00 battery and replace it every year or even every other year...actually, when I'm done with it in the race car it goes to the winch in the trailer...this way, the battry is always fresh and even at 1 a year it take 3 or 4 years to equal the price of an Optima or equivelant. At the first sign of a battery issue...I put new in!!!!

[DOTracer]

The engine does have a 2 gauge cable grounding the block to the frame. I also make sure I keep the starter mount clean from stray oil, etc. and that the bolts are tight.

I see your point on the Ford style solenoid. I wire it this way as back when I built the car, I was informed the shut off switched were not rated for the current draw of a starter. I guess times have changed and stronger kill switches are out there, but now were talking about replacing the shut off switch and rewiring the whole starter circuit. I have no problem doing so, but only if it can assure me this issue is gone.

On the battery, what CCA do you typically choose? I was told the plates are thinner on the 1000CCA models and don't hold up as well as the lower rated models.

Is 2 gauge cable adequate from the back to the starter?

How about the alternator charging voltage? is 15 volts too high?

Who's shut off switch to use?

[DOTracer]

If 2 gauge is not adequate for the starter run, then what gauge wire is recommended? I'm guessing the length of the run to be between 12 to 14' long.

[RRRAAAYYY2]

All sorts of different options when it comes to solenoids. Look for one in an Accurate Box, or for one that says made in USA or Canada. (truth beknown as far as I know the US ones are now all being made in Canada, but still called made in US)

As for batteries. What you heard is correct, so we usually go with a 700CCA unit. Or in around there. If it is an AGM you can go a little higher, but I seldomn recommend the biggest CCA rating in a group size.

Your alternator output of 15volts isnt too high, depending on your battery. We set our 1 wires to 15.1 (15.3 is bad for all batteries). Under lots of load they end up in the 14 range anyway. Batteries have different types of plates. Low Antomony plates (cheap batteries) cannot handle charge rates over 14.1, Hybird batteries one low antomony plate/one calcium plate and deep cycle batteries top out at 14.4volts, and true calcium/calcium batteries nothing over 15.3. There is a new silver coating Deka is using and it handles the 15volts.

My opinion, if you can buy a Deka Intimidator for less than $120, there is no reason to take a chance with a $70 bargian priced battery. With that said when Optima's quality went south we replaced dozens of cars with regular wetcells (East Penn 734/78 DT). They lasted for years. But if you are ever in a wreck, the AGM will make you glad you paid the extra $50. A quality AGM battery does offer better protection against failure by abuse and vibration. And yes you can replace the cheaper batteries easy enough, as long as the fail in a convienent spot. Hard to say if you can get good price on a quality wetcell, up to you. (Persoanlly I have gone both ways)

The 2ga is slightly light, but I would use it. You do have a PMGR type starter correct? Small body, under 10lbs type deal. If you are using the solenoid to fire the starter and have a jumper wire across the starter's solenoid, I highly do not recommend that. This keeps the starter engaged for a split second longer than it should be.

[RRRAAAYYY2]

Originally Posted by DOTracer

If 2 gauge is not adequate for the starter run, then what gauge wire is recommended? I'm guessing the length of the run to be between 12 to 14' long.

See the top of this forum, I stickied a Wire Sizing Chart. You dont need to run to those specs though, I would say with a PMGR starter you should be alright with the 2ga. If you decide to change (if it is 15 years old too), look at 1/0 cable, as it will cost you only about 10% more because it is so common, compared to 2ga.

[DOTracer]

Thanks for the replies.

Ray, the starter is a #9400 Powermater Ultra Torque. The starter is around 3 years old at the most.

yes, I am using the Ford Solenoid out back and the P/M solenoid has the jumper wire across the terminals.

I take it the recommendation is to remove the jumper wire. Run crank power from the car directly to the starter.

Then wire the battery cable directly to the cut-off switch. Given this situation, I assume I may need to replace the cut-off switch with a higher current rated switch? The current one is 15 years old, have no idea what the current rating is, but I know this one was made before the current crop of continuous high current ones came out. Currently the starter current draw does not run through the cut-off switch taking the load off the switch.

Thanks again for the replies.

[ILLINTENT]

We do not reccomend running the solenoid in the rear of the vehicle; if there is any voltage loss through the solenoid, it is better for the length of wire to be as short as possible after the drop. (solenoid as close as possible to the starter) The 9400 is not a PMGR, so there is no issue with running a jumper wire, but there is no advantage to running a remote solenoid either.

The standard morroso type shuttoff switch is technically not rated for the "up to" 500 amp draw that an Ultratorque can generate in some conditions, but it has been proven effective in countless race cars.

The 2 gauge cable is fine if it is high quality, high strand-count copper cable. What I do reccomend is running another 2 gauge ground cable from the negative terminal of the battery all the way to the engine block itself. The steel chassis will work as a ground in most cases, but what we generally see when we freshen starters in rear-battery applications is signifigantly shorter brushes on the GROUND side. (excessive wear from a struggling ground path) If you can spare the weight, run a copper ground cable all the way to the motor and you will find that your starter will crank faster and last longer.

AGM batteries are well worth it, flooded type batteries have far to many disadvantages. (leakage, lower output, vibration damage, colision safety, fumes, etc...) Spend a few dollars more and save yourself the headache. There is no reason an AGM should ever fail inside of 3 years even in the most abusive racing conditions, just make sure you maintain it's charge over the winter.

Matt
Powermaster Tech
www.xspowerbatteries.com

[DOTracer]

Thanks Matt. The alternator is your old style 10 full size case 100 amp 1 wire alternator, along with your 9400 starter.

Starter cable is actually 2 awg welding cable.

[RRRAAAYYY2]

Deleted

[RRRAAAYYY2]

Originally Posted by ILLINTENT

We do not reccomend running the solenoid in the rear of the vehicle; if there is any voltage loss through the solenoid, it is better for the length of wire to be as short as possible after the drop. (solenoid as close as possible to the starter) The 9400 is not a PMGR, so there is no issue with running a jumper wire, but there is no advantage to running a remote solenoid either.

The standard morroso type shuttoff switch is technically not rated for the "up to" 500 amp draw that an Ultratorque can generate in some conditions, but it has been proven effective in countless race cars.

The 2 gauge cable is fine if it is high quality, high strand-count copper cable. What I do reccomend is running another 2 gauge ground cable from the negative terminal of the battery all the way to the engine block itself. The steel chassis will work as a ground in most cases, but what we generally see when we freshen starters in rear-battery applications is signifigantly shorter brushes on the GROUND side. (excessive wear from a struggling ground path) If you can spare the weight, run a copper ground cable all the way to the motor and you will find that your starter will crank faster and last longer.

AGM batteries are well worth it, flooded type batteries have far to many disadvantages. (leakage, lower output, vibration damage, colision safety, fumes, etc...) Spend a few dollars more and save yourself the headache. There is no reason an AGM should ever fail inside of 3 years even in the most abusive racing conditions, just make sure you maintain it's charge over the winter.

Matt
Powermaster Tech
www.xspowerbatteries.com

The jumper cable will still keep the solenoid engaged PMGR or not, though usually for longer in a PMGR starter. I do not recommend it in any application, it is not fair to the manufacturer.

For everyones info, we have found that when using fine strand wire in high amp applications, it is generally considered a good idea to go one size bigger than calculated for. Electricity is supposed to travel on the outside of the strands, but in high current applications it seems like it wants to travel through the wire, causing scorch marks and bluing on the wires. Havent seen it much in automotive applications, but realy common issue in big trucks. (2000amp draws).

100% agree with the ground issues and AGM suggestions.

[ILLINTENT]

Originally Posted by DOTracer

Thanks Matt. The alternator is your old style 10 full size case 100 amp 1 wire alternator, along with your 9400 starter.

Starter cable is actually 2 awg welding cable.

It sounds like it really isn't a battery voltage related issue (battery voltage is still at least 13.5 when you expierience slow cranking) so I wouldn't really suspect the alternator. I run a 2/0 welding cable for positive side and ground direct to the engine block in my car, and I have virtualy very low voltage drop even during cranking. I use a standard Morroso shutoff switch and an OEM ford remote solenoid on the fenderwell next to the starter. I would just clean up all the conections and run a 2/0 ground the full length of the car to the motor and see what happens.

Matt
www.xspowerbatteries.com