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Old 09-24-2011, 09:31 PM   #31
russ67chevelle
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Default Re: Timing retarding with locked out dist.

like i said take a secondary battery(not hooked into car) and use for a power source for gun.g luck
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Old 09-25-2011, 07:42 PM   #32
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Default Re: Timing retarding with locked out dist.

I think I found the problem.



Time for a new timing chain and a Cloyes cover with the adjustable cam button made in it.
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Old 09-25-2011, 10:48 PM   #33
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Default Re: Timing retarding with locked out dist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horndog View Post
Has all the wires and connections in the ignition circuit been checked?
MSD prefer that the leads go directly to the battery.

What kind of timing light are you guys using ... standard or adjustable ?
Yes, all wires & connections have been checked, checked, & rechecked.
Im using an Actron advance type timing light hooked to alt. for power.
Have not tried another timing light or power source.
My box & retard came back from MSD a few days ago. Im on a job in New Mexico so havent had a chance to try it out yet.
My wife e-mailed me the invoice from MSD and the best I can tell, they found a bad diode in the 6AL2 on the cylinder select dial.
When I get home, Im gonna hook it all back up and see what I got. If it still does it, I will try another timing light.
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Old 09-27-2011, 10:09 AM   #34
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Default Re: Timing retarding with locked out dist.

Let us know what happens. Hopefully the diode is the root of your problems.
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Old 09-28-2011, 01:32 PM   #35
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Default Re: Timing retarding with locked out dist.

You need to use the cam button with the roller bearing in it and fab a brace between the water pump and timing cover.
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Old 09-28-2011, 03:06 PM   #36
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Default Re: Timing retarding with locked out dist.

x2^^^^
Had a cam button that was worn do the same thing.
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Old 09-28-2011, 08:57 PM   #37
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Default Re: Timing retarding with locked out dist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sst386 View Post
You need to use the cam button with the roller bearing in it and fab a brace between the water pump and timing cover.

Using this one. Just have to get it put on tomorrow night.
http://www.cloyes.com/HighPerformanc...S/Default.aspx
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Old 09-29-2011, 08:06 PM   #38
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Default Re: Timing retarding with locked out dist.

We fought this on a SBC for years and never fixed it. We tried everything and after we had replaced every part in the equation tried lights ,battery not hooked to the car.Made a girdle thinking cam walk even though we had custom button tried chains and ended up grabbing the throttle and crazily seeing how far it retarded then advanced the the timing to compensate. What we always wanted to try and never did is MSD makes oversized gears. The cam guy new all we had done and pointed his finger that way also. Just something to think about.
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Old 09-30-2011, 12:05 AM   #39
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Default Re: Timing retarding with locked out dist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by julven View Post
We fought this on a SBC for years and never fixed it. We tried everything and after we had replaced every part in the equation tried lights ,battery not hooked to the car.Made a girdle thinking cam walk even though we had custom button tried chains and ended up grabbing the throttle and crazily seeing how far it retarded then advanced the the timing to compensate. What we always wanted to try and never did is MSD makes oversized gears. The cam guy new all we had done and pointed his finger that way also. Just something to think about.
I bought a .006 over gear - havent tried it yet.
MSD also makes a .012 over.
If the diode doesnt fix it, when I get home, Im trying the other timing light & power source, then the .006 gear.
If that doesnt work, Im gonna spray it with a 400 shot and let the loose end drag.
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Old 10-17-2011, 01:11 AM   #40
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Default Re: Timing retarding with locked out dist.

UPDATE------------Got my ignition & retard boxes back from MSD. Installed and same old crap.

Fired it up, running like its hitting on 5-6 cyls. Wont rev past 3000 rpm.
Bypassed the 3-stage retard box and just ran off 6AL2 and it ran fine. Hitting on all 8 but timing still retarding like before.
Theres no doubt in my mind something is wrong with the retard box, but that doesnt explain the retarding issue.

I put a start-retard box on it so I could take it to the track Saturday. It did just like it did the previous time at the track, sputtering in & out several times during each pass.
Leave the line at 4600, when the tach gets to 5500 (every pass) it will sputter just like its detonating or hitting a rev limit. It does it for a split second then goes back to pulling again.
Gets to about 6200, same thing, then at about 6800, same thing. Then pulls on to 7200 where I shift.
Once in high gear it will sputter a couple times, then pull on to 7100 where I cross the line.
Im beginning to think my rotor may be outa phase or something. Im gonna check that next.

I know one thing, Im tired of dealing with MSD. Every time I talk to those guys I feel Im getting the runaround. I called the tech service & told them the scoop.
At 1st he told me my dizzy was bad. OK----Splain how its running fine without the retard box hooked up????
Then he said the retard box must be bad. I said -------You Think????----- You had it 3 weeks, and the invoice said it was tested and all tested good ------ How can it be bad?
He said he didnt know but send it back and they would test it again. I just went ahead and got another box. Figured Id end up saving money on shipping.

Car ran low 10-teens at 132 all night with a best of 10.04 at 133.5 w/1.46 60' sputtering every pass.

Im thinking maybe the rotor is on the tail edge of the terminal and when it gets on up in rpm it may be trying to jump to the next terminal.
That would make sense wouldnt it /?????? What do yall think?????
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Old 10-17-2011, 07:56 PM   #41
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Default Re: Timing retarding with locked out dist.

adapt a cap on your dis.(85551 dissy-right?) get the adapt a cap kit, it is a ford style cap with an adapter for a chevy dissy. love mine, and if your using nitrous and pulling advance on the hit, even more the reason to get it!with the ford style, it spreads the terminals out with the larger diameter
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Old 10-18-2011, 03:29 PM   #42
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Default Re: Timing retarding with locked out dist.

OK --- Heres where Im at
Last night I removed all retard boxes from ignition. Only running the 6AL2 Ignition box
Drilled a hole in the dizzy cap at the #1 terminal.
Set timing at 38* with timing light.
Looking at rotor through hole with timing light --- Tang is 1/2 way between dead center & tail end of #1 terminal. --- Steady as a rock, does not move at idle or when reving engine.
Looking at dampner with timing light --- Steady 38* at idle. --- Retards to 30*-28* when reving engine. Always comes back to a rock steady 38* at idle.
Removed dizzy and took apart checking everything including roll pin that holds the metal thingy under rotor cap (I think its called a reluctor - I dont know)
Everything is dizzy is fine --- found no problems.
Pulled timing cover & checked camshaft endplay ---- Perfect --- No more than .002

This engine has 15 - 1/8mile passes and 15 - 1/4mile passes on it --- Thats all.
Ive probably made 15-20 1000' passes on the public test strip I live on. LOL
This is all I can find --- This is a brand new Cloyes set.
This seems like too much slack to me. I dont know if its enough to make it retard 8-10* but its way more than Im used to seeing.
Pics #1 & #3 are taken with all the slack out of the chain turning the crank clockwise. (LOOK AT RED LINE)
Pics #2 & #4 are taken backing up the crankshaft counterclockwise until slack is gone.
Pic #5 shows the chain sitting at rest.
Pic #6 shows me pushing against it.



Like I say, I know this is more slack than Im used to seeing but not sure if its enough to allow 8-10* of retarding.

----- Suggestions Please --------











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Old 10-18-2011, 05:04 PM   #43
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Default Re: Timing retarding with locked out dist.

One more thing I forgot to add. Havent really thought much about it until now.

This is the first time Ive had a dizzy locked out.
In the past I would set my initial timing at say 15 & mechanical advance at 20 for a total of 35*
I would line my TDC pointer up at 15* BTDC & set dizzy so rotor was pointing at center of #1 terminal.
I could crank it and most of the time be dead on 15* initial timing.

I cant do that now.
If I line up TDC pointer with 38* BTDC and dizzy at #1 terminal, it will not start.
Have to line it up at 60* BTDC for it to work. (Yeah I know this sounds crazy)
I can fire it up, set timing at 38*, it will run fine like its supposed to.
If you shut it off, and rotate the crank by ratchet, the balancer will be at 60* BTDC when the rotor lines up with the #1 terminal.
I know this sounds crazy--- I didnt mention it before because I just found it.

When it wouldnt crank the 1st time, I just figured I got it a tooth off, so I moved it up a tooth and tried it again.
It cranked up, then I set the timing at 38* with the timing light.
Last night when I was checking things is when I found this.
Timing was at 38* with light but when you roll around by hand its on 60* with rotor at #1 terminal.

Balancer is the 7'' ATI Super Dampner
I set TCD with a degree wheel when I degreed the cam in.
The Cloyes crank gear has 3 slots. stock, advanced, & retard --- Its in the stock setting.
Block was align honed only and did not need very much at all to clean up.

Ive never run into this before and dont know which way to go !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 10-18-2011, 10:15 PM   #44
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Default Re: Timing retarding with locked out dist.

first you check that the pointer in dead on? second the timing chain is fine.. as for the timing jumping around! whats the spring pressure and are you running a small base cam? get the start retartd out of there and seen if you can borrow a different dizzy. where is the spark plug gap at..
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Old 10-18-2011, 10:30 PM   #45
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Default Re: Timing retarding with locked out dist.

btw where is the ign box mounted and it there any spark or power wires running right next to it?
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