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Old 02-03-2011, 01:04 AM   #1
GTO48
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Default Proof that God doesn't exist? - Smart people only please!

I saw someone point this video out in a Facebook conversation that I wasn't part of, but I figured I'd click the link to see what all the hubub was about...

This person lays out quite a nice, if not complicated and verbose, argument for the non-existence of God. I find one point of it problematic. I want to see if anybody else spots the same flaw, to make sure I'm not writing it off improperly.

Watch here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-dq2wxJIdM Or see it below...

Quote:
D1: God is defined as omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent
D2: Revelation is Gods disclosure of Himself to His Creation
D3: Evidence is propositional knowledge
D4: Revelation is experiential knowledge
D5: Resistant nonbelief is a disposition to incredulity
D6: Nonresistant nonbelief is a disposition to credulity, while being unconvinced

P1: God desires that mankind achieve a filial knowledge of Him
P2: God can be known propositionally and/or experientially
P3: Propositional knowledge does not entail, but may result in, filial knowledge
P4: Experiential knowledge does not entail, but may result in, filial knowledge

P5: If it is the case that God is omniscient then He is aware of states of affairs that would bring about filial knowledge of Him
P6: If it is the case that God is omnipotent then He is capable of actualizing states of affairs that would bring about filial knowledge of Him

P7: If it is the case that God has made His existence propositionally known in the past then such a state of affairs is logically possible
P8: If it is the case that God has made His existence experientially known in the past then such a state of affairs is logically possible

P9: God has actualized states of affairs that have led certain individuals to filial knowledge of Him
P10: God has not actualized states of affairs that would lead certain individuals to a filial knowledge of Him

P11: The degree to which Gods existence is known propositionally is at His discretion
P12: The degree to which Gods existence is known experientially is at His discretion

P13: There is a necessary state of affairs for individuals that would bring about their filial knowledge of God

P14: If it is the case that it is not logically possible for God to actualize a necessary state of affairs to bring about filial knowledge Him, then such a state of affairs is logically impossible

P15: States of affairs which are logically impossible do not entail culpability

C1: If nonbelief occurs it is either the case that God has not actualized states of affairs that would bring about filial knowledge, or it is the case that such a state of affairs is not logically possible (D1, D2, D3, D4, D6, P2, P3, P4, P5, P6, P7, P8, P9, P10, P11, P12, P13 and P14)
C2: Nonresistant nonbelief is inculpable (from D6, P2, P3, P4, P5, P6, P7, P8, P9, P11, P12 & P13)
C3: Resistant nonbelief is inculpable (from D5, P14 & P15)

P16: Inculpable nonbelief is incompatible with a God as defined in D1
C4: If it is the case that nonbelief occurs, God does not exist
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Old 02-03-2011, 01:12 AM   #2
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Default Re: Proof that God doesn't exist? - Smart people only please!

If you cannot use a fictional book to prove the existence of God you cannot use it to prove his non-existence.

There is simply no rational reason to believe in a God. No imperical evidence or for that matter any fact in this world that cannot be explained by science.

There is however evidence of the creation of our current deity by the counsel of nasea, and by constantine. And even more evidence of fables taken from prior religions, and customs adopted, but claimed as Christian.

Abraham was a goat farmer with some good storys. Basing life or death decisions on his day dreams is, and will continue to be, idiocy.

The religious are insane. They will accept myth before fact, even if the fact is right before their eyes. If you proved the existence of God to a scientist he would accept it. But there is no way to disprove God to a person who has faith. Faith being equivilent to self delusion.

Last edited by Anchor Baby; 02-03-2011 at 01:14 AM.
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Old 02-03-2011, 01:14 AM   #3
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Default Re: Proof that God doesn't exist? - Smart people only please!

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Originally Posted by Anchor Baby View Post
If you cannot use a fictional book to prove the existence of God you cannot use it to prove his non-existence.

There is simply no rational reason to believe in a God. No imperical evidence or for that matter any fact in this world that cannot be explained by science.

There is however evidence of the creation of our current deity by the counsel of nasea, and by constantine. And even more evidence of fables taken from prior religions, and customs adopted, but claimed as Christian.

Abraham was a goat farmer with some good storys. Basing life or death decisions on his day dreams is, and will continue to be, idiocy.

The religious are insane. They will accept myth before fact, even if the fact is right before their eyes. If you proved the existence of God to a scientist he would accept it. But there is no way to disprove God to a person who has faith. Faith being equivilent to self delusion.
The bible was not one of his definitions, nor premises.
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Old 02-03-2011, 01:19 AM   #4
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Default Re: Proof that God doesn't exist? - Smart people only please!

As a human weakness

In a 1954 letter, Einstein wrote:
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. These interpretations are highly manifold according to their nature and have almost nothing to do with the original text. For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are also no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them.
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Old 02-03-2011, 01:20 AM   #5
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Default Re: Proof that God doesn't exist? - Smart people only please!

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Originally Posted by GTO48 View Post
The bible was not one of his definitions, nor premises.
I know. I fucked up. I gave it a better read after I posted.

To a rational person, the argument is pointless.

Would it be nice if there was a God. Yup. Could a deity exist in the vast expanse of this universe. Yes indeed. Do we have any real evidence of anything. No.

Faith is a comfort, but it cannot be used as a means to justify life decision. That would be the same as day dreaming your way to wealth.
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Old 02-03-2011, 01:31 AM   #6
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Default Re: Proof that God doesn't exist? - Smart people only please!

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Originally Posted by Anchor Baby View Post
To a rational person, the argument is pointless.
For the most part, I'd say that's correct. The argument itself is probably pointless. However, being somewhat of a logic geek, I was quite taken by his effort, up until one particular point late in the argument.
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Old 02-03-2011, 01:32 AM   #7
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Default Re: Proof that God doesn't exist? - Smart people only please!

Ive had the conversation with a few of my friends and it always turns bad. I was raised in a catholic family and they get pissed if i question the church. If you have any sort of a brain you have to question this. There is no proof , its all theory.
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Old 02-03-2011, 01:32 AM   #8
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Default Re: Proof that God doesn't exist? - Smart people only please!

Evidence is not, necessarily, propositional knowledge.
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Old 02-03-2011, 01:33 AM   #9
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Default Re: Proof that God doesn't exist? - Smart people only please!

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Originally Posted by jackpot View Post
Ive had the conversation with a few of my friends and it always turns bad. I was raised in a catholic family and they get pissed if i question the church. If you have any sort of a brain you have to question this. There is no proof , its all theory.

Its not even theory. Its barely a hypothesis.
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Old 02-03-2011, 01:36 AM   #10
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Default Re: Proof that God doesn't exist? - Smart people only please!

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Originally Posted by Mark O'Neal View Post
Evidence is not, necessarily, propositional knowledge.
Agreed.

I think for the purposes of his argument, he was defining that evidence for God could come in the form of propositional knowledge, which I would also agree with.

A bad syllogism on his part, but if you were to accept my interpretation of it, I think the argument could go forward. Until another speed bump arises later.
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Old 02-03-2011, 01:39 AM   #11
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Default Re: Proof that God doesn't exist? - Smart people only please!

I'm having trouble reading it. Ceiling Cat wants the computer......
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Old 02-03-2011, 01:41 AM   #12
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Default Re: Proof that God doesn't exist? - Smart people only please!

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Originally Posted by Mark O'Neal View Post
Its not even theory. Its barely a hypothesis.
The Gospel according to Mark........freaking doubting Thomas.


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Old 02-03-2011, 01:42 AM   #13
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Default Re: Proof that God doesn't exist? - Smart people only please!

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I'm having trouble reading it. Ceiling Cat wants the computer......
Finally. Someone in your home with a valid veiwpoint to express.
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Old 02-03-2011, 01:42 AM   #14
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Default Re: Proof that God doesn't exist? - Smart people only please!

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I'm having trouble reading it. Ceiling Cat wants the computer......
Well shit, I'm not going to translate that into cheezburger sp33k for you.
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Old 02-03-2011, 01:43 AM   #15
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Default Re: Proof that God doesn't exist? - Smart people only please!

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The Gospel of Mark........freaking doubting Thomas.


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Read Thomas Paine...if you want to see doubt.
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