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Old 01-21-2011, 01:48 PM   #136
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Default Re: So the dude up the street shot a guy who broke in his house....

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Originally Posted by smokinwoody View Post
this has been a real good thread...

boundary layers is a good deffensive tactic for sure and one I use for my property and home..

some guys have never experienced a break in or a threat to where a weapon would be the last line of defense..

around 33 years ago I lived alone in a 3 story appartment building being on the 3rd floor.. at the time I owned several weapons in various calibers and was an avid shooter..
I was introduced to a fella that needed electrical work in his home and I was contracted as a side job...turns out this guy was a total nut case...I did the work as expected and was payed..some of the work entailed brick work which I roughed the electrical in for..the brick layers had just left and this guy calls me and informs me of the work and wants me back NOW to install this heavy exhaust hood which mounts on the brick..I informed him that the mortar needs a few days to set before I can finish up...
he gets very belligerent with me on the phone demanding his money back...I told him no as he still owed me money so lets call it even and leave me alone..with that I hung up...he kept calling..

finaly I was awoken out of a nap from this guy pounding on my door screaming that he wants his lousy 75 bucks back for a $150 job...I didnt answer the door..he went away...thats was around 8:30pm...

around 11:30pm I was waken by noises of someone trying to break in...I can hear a screw driver trying to force the door ajar..( I was a lite sleeper then)..

I imediately pulled out most of my guns and loaded...I had a 9mm that I kept loaded at all times but I wasnt sure if that would be enough...so I loaded a .44 mag...357mag..asorted 22's and my 9mm already to go...thoughts went thru my mind in blistering patterns like..which caliber to shoot this guy with...will it go thru him and kill my neighbor?..so mili seconds later I had the police on the phone...

they caught this guy red handed with a .357 in his belt...the police detective sees all my weapons out ready to go and one in my belt...what he said to me I never forgot(I was 26 at the time)..he said: make sure you shoot him in the frontal area, never in the back or sides and must show threat to do bodily harm....since they caught the guy red handed they didnt need me as a witness...he did serve time and I moved away from there..

what was my line of defence there?...well he broke thru a secure door down stairs...good thing I installed a double lock that used a 2" locking bar that went thru studs...I feel I was lucky that night ...

line of defence now...3 dogs, alarm and assorted weapons that I am completely intimate with placed in strategic locations...I have no children

hope this was a good read...blaze away

In my State, it doesn't matter where you shoot them if they break into your house. The breaking and entering is enough to show a threat, you have no duty to retreat, and you can use deadly force even to protect your property. Doesn't need to be a threat on your life. You can actually shoot someone running down the street to keep them from getting away with your property. Although I don't think I would do that myself. If they break into my house, they will be unloaded on, period. Front, back, head, ass, wherever I can hit them.

I've never been broken into, but a time or two I heard sounds that made me think I was. I had no problem finding my weapon and checking out the noise. Maybe twice in my life I've actually done this.
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:39 PM   #137
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Default Re: So the dude up the street shot a guy who broke in his house....

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In my State, it doesn't matter where you shoot them if they break into your house. The breaking and entering is enough to show a threat, you have no duty to retreat, and you can use deadly force even to protect your property. Doesn't need to be a threat on your life. You can actually shoot someone running down the street to keep them from getting away with your property. Although I don't think I would do that myself. If they break into my house, they will be unloaded on, period. Front, back, head, ass, wherever I can hit them.

I've never been broken into, but a time or two I heard sounds that made me think I was. I had no problem finding my weapon and checking out the noise. Maybe twice in my life I've actually done this.
"ballistics report shows the intruder was placed on his knees. The entry wound was at the back and top of the skull with the exit wound thru the mouth which indicates the shooter was standing behind him pointing down" But its cool, the intruder forced his way into the house so it's justified!!

Whatever!! What state are you from???? Here in the KY, we are only allowed to defend our lives and the lives of others with deadly force and if you are defending the lives of others, you better be damn sure that their life is really in danger! We can't protect our tv's with deadly force.

If a dude crashes through my window, and sees me standing there with a weapon and says "This was a bad fucking idea" and turns to get the fuck out of there, he's no longer threatening my life and I can't use deadly force. Of course, it all comes down to what can be proven at this point and one side of the story may have went silent. But if I took a man out execution style after he was no longer a threat, that is cold blooded murder. I don't care where you live.

You might want to re check your laws.
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:44 PM   #138
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Default Re: So the dude up the street shot a guy who broke in his house....

I reckon we prepare for the worst. Hope for the best, and get enough training and practice to react, but not over react to situations that don't really require deadly force.

Situational awareness is the key and is like the ounce of prevention to a pound of cure. Everything we decide has trade offs and consequences.

Can I get an amen?
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Old 01-24-2011, 12:03 PM   #139
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Default Re: So the dude up the street shot a guy who broke in his house....

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I reckon we prepare for the worst. Hope for the best, and get enough training and practice to react, but not over react to situations that don't really require deadly force.

Situational awareness is the key and is like the ounce of prevention to a pound of cure. Everything we decide has trade offs and consequences.

Can I get an amen?

amen...been there
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Old 01-24-2011, 12:18 PM   #140
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Default Re: So the dude up the street shot a guy who broke in his house....

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"ballistics report shows the intruder was placed on his knees. The entry wound was at the back and top of the skull with the exit wound thru the mouth which indicates the shooter was standing behind him pointing down" But its cool, the intruder forced his way into the house so it's justified!!

Whatever!! What state are you from???? Here in the KY, we are only allowed to defend our lives and the lives of others with deadly force and if you are defending the lives of others, you better be damn sure that their life is really in danger! We can't protect our tv's with deadly force.

If a dude crashes through my window, and sees me standing there with a weapon and says "This was a bad fucking idea" and turns to get the fuck out of there, he's no longer threatening my life and I can't use deadly force. Of course, it all comes down to what can be proven at this point and one side of the story may have went silent. But if I took a man out execution style after he was no longer a threat, that is cold blooded murder. I don't care where you live.

You might want to re check your laws.

So what if?????

You order the intruder to his knees, place your firearm to the back of his head while attempting to call the police, and he starts to scramble? Like he doesn't want to go to jail. Sooooo.......in fear you shoot. On paper (in the ballistics reports) it looks like an execution.

All I'm saying is there is always differing circumstances that may or may NOT end up in the reports.

Oh yeah.....Here in Texas, we can (by law) use whatever force deemed necessary to protect our "Property" and ESPECIALLY our own lives and the lives of our loved ones....Most of which is covered by the "Castle Doctrine".

And the term "Property" is very loosely defined and wasn't given any specific monetary value. Whether it's a car, ATV, jewelry that's been passed down for generations or a Chinese made 10pc socket set......it's all "Property".

As we all saw in the "Joe Horn" case.....The same holds true if you are simply asked to "Look after my place while I'm gone will ya?".....Seems like a neighborly thing most everyone says, but it (Legally) has quite a bit of weight.
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Old 01-24-2011, 12:45 PM   #141
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Default Re: So the dude up the street shot a guy who broke in his house....

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So what if?????

You order the intruder to his knees, place your firearm to the back of his head while attempting to call the police, and he starts to scramble? Like he doesn't want to go to jail. Sooooo.......in fear you shoot. On paper (in the ballistics reports) it looks like an execution.

All I'm saying is there is always differing circumstances that may or may NOT end up in the reports.

Oh yeah.....Here in Texas, we can (by law) use whatever force deemed necessary to protect our "Property" and ESPECIALLY our own lives and the lives of our loved ones....Most of which is covered by the "Castle Doctrine".

And the term "Property" is very loosely defined and wasn't given any specific monetary value. Whether it's a car, ATV, jewelry that's been passed down for generations or a Chinese made 10pc socket set......it's all "Property".

As we all saw in the "Joe Horn" case.....The same holds true if you are simply asked to "Look after my place while I'm gone will ya?".....Seems like a neighborly thing most everyone says, but it (Legally) has quite a bit of weight.

I would think that once the intruder has been brought to submission..its no longer life threatening..its the period of break in..

I dont think that I would have a gun to his head...but I would have gun trained on him...if he did get up and turned towards you in a threatening fashion..then yes I would shoot...

there are so many scenerios that can be played out..I was lucky the guy was caught red handed and didnt enter the apartment..was also lucky that my wife wasnt harmed from the day burglers..and they did have weapons..

like said, the mind does think very fast but good strategic placement of defensive weapons and barriers to control different situations are key..
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Old 01-24-2011, 02:15 PM   #142
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Default Re: So the dude up the street shot a guy who broke in his house....

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So what if?????

You order the intruder to his knees, place your firearm to the back of his head while attempting to call the police, and he starts to scramble? Like he doesn't want to go to jail. Sooooo.......in fear you shoot. On paper (in the ballistics reports) it looks like an execution.

All I'm saying is there is always differing circumstances that may or may NOT end up in the reports.
So if you feared for your life. You didn't just execute him for breaking into your house. You don't have the "duty to retreat" when you are protecting your life or your shit, but if it is obvious that the BG was retreating and you killed him knowing he was retreating then you're in for some shit!!

Defense > Revenge.
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Old 01-24-2011, 02:22 PM   #143
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Default Re: So the dude up the street shot a guy who broke in his house....

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You can actually shoot someone running down the street to keep them from getting away with your property.
Can you show the law that verifies this is legal? Just curious.
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Old 01-24-2011, 04:21 PM   #144
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Default Re: So the dude up the street shot a guy who broke in his house....

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Can you show the law that verifies this is legal? Just curious.

Im almost willing to bet even in Texas, they will fry your ass. a lawyer is going to tell a jury,"did he absolutely, positively have to take that persons life? after all he was running away, carrying a small tv. I mean this man's life was in absolutely no danger at all at this time. Think it doesnt happen? i bet you would be suprised. next comes the civil suit, which is totally different from the criminal.
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Old 01-24-2011, 04:23 PM   #145
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Default Re: So the dude up the street shot a guy who broke in his house....

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Can you show the law that verifies this is legal? Just curious.
It's not legal. Lawyer will have a field day with a stunt like that. Castle Doctrine is a great tool but it appears to be getting some abuse.
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Old 01-24-2011, 04:25 PM   #146
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Default Re: So the dude up the street shot a guy who broke in his house....

see gunny knows!!!!!
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Old 01-24-2011, 04:28 PM   #147
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Default Re: So the dude up the street shot a guy who broke in his house....

Texas Castle Doctrine:

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a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor [he] reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor [himself] against the other’s use or attempted use of unlawful force. The actor’s belief that the force was immediately necessary as described by this subsection is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:

(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used:

(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor’s occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;

(B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor’s habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or

(C) was committing or attempting to commit aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery;

(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force was used; and

(3) was not otherwise engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic at the time the force was used.

(e) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom the force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at the time the force is used is not required to retreat before using force as described by this section.

(f) For purposes of Subsection (a), in determining whether an actor described by Subsection (e) reasonably believed that the use of force was necessary, a finder of fact may not consider whether the
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You ornry bastard
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Old 01-24-2011, 04:33 PM   #148
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Default Re: So the dude up the street shot a guy who broke in his house....

pull any of that " john wayne" crap. you will receive trip to the iron bar hotel!
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Old 01-24-2011, 06:55 PM   #149
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Default Re: So the dude up the street shot a guy who broke in his house....

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The Self Defense Laws Of Texas
The Texas Constitution
Article 1 - BILL OF RIGHTS
Section 23 - RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS
"Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms in the lawful defense of himself or the State; but the Legislature shall have power, by law, to regulate the wearing of arms, with a view to prevent crime."
Self Defense Statutes
(Texas Penal Code)
Deadly Force to Protect Property
"A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect his property to the degree he reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, theft during the nighttime or criminal mischief during the nighttime, and he reasonably believes that the property cannot be protected by any other means."
"A person is justified in using deadly force against another to prevent the other who is fleeing after committing burglary, robbery, or theft during the nighttime, from escaping with the property and he reasonable believes that the property cannot be recovered by any other means; or, the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the property would expose him or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury. (Nighttime is defined as the period 30 minutes after sunset until 30 minutes before sunrise.)"
Protection of the Property of Others
"A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect the property of a third person if he reasonably believes he would be justified to use similar force to protect his own property, and he reasonably believes that there existed an attempt or actual commission of the crime of theft or criminal mischief."
"Also, a person is justified in using force or deadly force if he reasonably believes that the third person has requested his protection of property; or he has a legal duty to protect the property; or the third person whose property he is protecting is his spouse, parent or child."
Reasonable Belief
"It is not necessary that there should be actual danger, as a person has the right to defend his life and person from apparent danger as fully and to the same extent as he would have were the danger real, as it reasonably appeared to him from his standpoint at the time."
"In fact, Sec 9.31(a) [of the Penal Code] expressly provides that a person is justified in using deadly force against another when and to the degree he reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary."
The Castle Doctrine is quoted a little too often as a defense (even by myself) when it is several other of the Texas laws that cover most of the stories people have heard.


As for the "Perp" that is retreating.....I believe the above laws cover that scenario as well.
In Texas, if you get caught by the owner or anyone charged with aiding in the security of a property, you run the risk of being involved in a "Justifiable Homicide". As was shown by the Joe Horn case.....And Texas also has enacted a few laws to protect the "Actor" from ANY civil action that may be brought as well..


Quote:
SECTION 4. Section 83.001, Civil Practice and Remedies Code, is amended to read as follows:
Sec. 83.001. CIVIL IMMUNITY [AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE]. A [It is an affirmative defense to a civil action for damages for personal injury or death that the] defendant who uses force or[, at the time the cause of action arose, was justified in using] deadly force that is justified under Chapter 9 [Section 9.32], Penal Code, is immune from civil liability for personal injury or death that results from the defendant’s [against a person who at the time of the] use of force or deadly force, as applicable [was committing an offense of unlawful entry in the habitation of the defendant].
SECTION 5. (a) Sections 9.31 and 9.32, Penal Code, as amended by this Act, apply only to an offense committed on or after the effective date of this Act. An offense committed before the effective date of this Act is covered by the law in effect when the offense was committed, and the former law is continued in effect for this purpose. For the purposes of this subsection, an offense is committed before the effective date of this Act if any element of the offense occurs before the effective date.
(b) Section 83.001, Civil Practice and Remedies Code, as amended by this Act, applies only to a cause of action that accrues on or after the effective date of this Act. An action that accrued before the effective date of this Act is governed by the law in effect at the time the action accrued, and that law is continued in effect for that purpose.
SECTION 6. This Act takes effect September 1, 2007.
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Old 01-24-2011, 07:42 PM   #150
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Default Re: So the dude up the street shot a guy who broke in his house....

Im with Doug on this one. Several of my CHL instructors have verified his statements. Now I don't know about running down the street, but if they are on your property and (even fleeing) you can shoot them to stop them from leaving with your property. Note that I said shoot them to stop them, not unloading your weapon on them. But if you are a good shot, it will only take one anyway.

Now, an execution style killing.... I don't think THAT would be covered. But how many theives you know are gonna sit still while you call the cops? I highly doubt that situation would ever arise. And if it did, the "actor" could simply say the guy turned and tried to pull something out of his shirt.... thus the "actor" felt he was drawing some type of weapon and he feared for his life so he shot him.

Remember, just because there are laws protecting you doesn't mean that you will be in the clear. ANYONE can bring a case against you and the attorneys fees to show you were within your rights can be mighty costly. So I keep this in mind when deciding to use deadly force. If they are stealing some $100 radio or easily replaceable stuff, I'd probably just fire a round into the ground to scare them...make them think twice about coming back. But breaking into my house.... that is a death sentence, end of story.
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