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Old 12-21-2010, 12:23 AM   #91
Brian Tooley
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Default Re: Lets talk about the "best" 15 degree LS head out there..

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Originally Posted by Collinsautomotive View Post
BT the new CNC highports are great and I have 2 customers running the TFS lsx heads. Both made great power and ran good numbers for a out of the box head. Worked great with the recomaned TFS cam, good manners, excelent power.

Job well done.
Wow, thanks man, we worked so hard on all of that stuff, I'm glad it worked great for you.

It is rare to get a complement in this industry, you're a good man
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Old 12-21-2010, 09:34 AM   #92
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Default Re: Lets talk about the "best" 15 degree LS head out there..

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Interesting considering myself and Tony Darnell (TEA employee) are the only ones who had anything to do with the airflow or power development of that head.

As a matter of fact, every CNC head that TFS offers was either developed by me, Tony or Paris Pugliese, with myself doing all of the digitizing, CNC programming, etc.

Even the LS as cast, TW as cast and 21* LT1 heads were developed by us. The TW Mod head was my idea, and we did all of the airflow and power development on that as well.

I love Chris like a brother, he has plenty of things he can take credit for, development of TFS heads is not one of them. Larry Widmer tried to take credit for doing TFS development too...must be a Texas thing...

From what I understood he was working with you guys in testing ideas for the head. Sorry for the confusion, possibly I misunderstood what he was telling me....but it's still a nice piece.
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Old 12-21-2010, 10:55 AM   #93
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Default Re: Lets talk about the "best" 15 degree LS head out there..

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Wow, thanks man, we worked so hard on all of that stuff, I'm glad it worked great for you.

It is rare to get a complement in this industry, you're a good man
Your welcome and I don't mind paying a compliment when one is due. Its been one of the more powerful head/cam combos I have seen on a 347ci lsi to date. We have some inhouse stuff thats a bit better using factory/ETP castings and a more aggresive cam profile. But I was absolutely shocked with the power numbers. The Car ET'd to back it up.

Went 11.10-11.20 with just the standard tfs top end. He bought a whole kit. Rockers, heads,cam. I recomended the kit to another customers and hes been 10.90 with a fiarly heavy pig of a car. Hard to quantify the dyno numbers, only 390@6500, but I have a stingy dyno.

Either way, I'll continue to buy TFS and TEA products.
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Old 12-21-2010, 03:14 PM   #94
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Default Re: Lets talk about the "best" 15 degree LS head out there..

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Damn you found even better stuff than me Bret!

My hat is off to you and DART heads are probably not all that bad.

I just don't think the others are either.
Yeah... they seem to work ok when IRS sedans with 427s and 230° cams can make 540rwhp with them. The nicest cathedral stuff I have ever seen, be it moving air or making power is in those castings. When a calibrated bench that makes most peoples heads look like turds shows you 350+cfm on a 3.900" bore and a 2.055" valve.... something is going right.

It's hard to beat a casting that allows all the stuff to bolt up to it, have tons of material in it in the right places for porting AND not cause a comprimise in the valvetrain. That's why I like that casting.

I will say some new guides have been put in some of the heads because they were way off from the factory, but that's just part of building anything is checking the details.... if you don't check that and then complain about it, maybe you should leave the work to professionals.

Bret

PS Sean.... the 355 T61 vs. 356 T6 at 400° is 40% stronger... that's a pretty big margin
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Old 12-22-2010, 10:36 PM   #95
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Default Re: Lets talk about the "best" 15 degree LS head out there..

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Yeah... they seem to work ok when IRS sedans with 427s and 230° cams can make 540rwhp with them. The nicest cathedral stuff I have ever seen, be it moving air or making power is in those castings. When a calibrated bench that makes most peoples heads look like turds shows you 350+cfm on a 3.900" bore and a 2.055" valve.... something is going right.
You guys should do up a set and send them to Richard Holdener, I'm sure he can find something to test them on. If you really believe they are that good, and they beat everything else back to back, then you're rich and famous before you know it.

If you don't want to pony up the castings, he might have some he can send you, or he can get some, if they still make them.
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Old 12-23-2010, 01:55 AM   #96
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Default Re: Lets talk about the "best" 15 degree LS head out there..

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Yeah... they seem to work ok when IRS sedans with 427s and 230° cams can make 540rwhp with them. The nicest cathedral stuff I have ever seen, be it moving air or making power is in those castings. When a calibrated bench that makes most peoples heads look like turds shows you 350+cfm on a 3.900" bore and a 2.055" valve.... something is going right.

It's hard to beat a casting that allows all the stuff to bolt up to it, have tons of material in it in the right places for porting AND not cause a comprimise in the valvetrain. That's why I like that casting.

I will say some new guides have been put in some of the heads because they were way off from the factory, but that's just part of building anything is checking the details.... if you don't check that and then complain about it, maybe you should leave the work to professionals.

Bret

PS Sean.... the 355 T61 vs. 356 T6 at 400° is 40% stronger... that's a pretty big margin
I linked it a few pages back, normal alloy engineering tables showed 8% maybe 10% at best depending on work tempatures.

http://www.ofalloncasting.com/Downlo...e%20Alloys.pdf
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Old 12-23-2010, 09:02 AM   #97
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Default Re: Lets talk about the "best" 15 degree LS head out there..

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Yeah... they seem to work ok when IRS sedans with 427s and 230° cams can make 540rwhp with them. The nicest cathedral stuff I have ever seen, be it moving air or making power is in those castings. When a calibrated bench that makes most peoples heads look like turds shows you 350+cfm on a 3.900" bore and a 2.055" valve.... something is going right.

It's hard to beat a casting that allows all the stuff to bolt up to it, have tons of material in it in the right places for porting AND not cause a comprimise in the valvetrain. That's why I like that casting.

I will say some new guides have been put in some of the heads because they were way off from the factory, but that's just part of building anything is checking the details.... if you don't check that and then complain about it, maybe you should leave the work to professionals.

Bret

PS Sean.... the 355 T61 vs. 356 T6 at 400° is 40% stronger... that's a pretty big margin

So what your saying is when you buy a complete head from someone for a fn street car you should take it apart and check everything.... How about NO.... There junk and Masts heads shit on them....
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Old 12-23-2010, 01:34 PM   #98
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Default Re: Lets talk about the "best" 15 degree LS head out there..

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You guys should do up a set and send them to Richard Holdener, I'm sure he can find something to test them on. If you really believe they are that good, and they beat everything else back to back, then you're rich and famous before you know it.

If you don't want to pony up the castings, he might have some he can send you, or he can get some, if they still make them.
Brian, I really don't feel like handing Westech a few extra bucks to make them look better than another head which is COMMON BS these days that nobody wants to talk about, the heads stand their own ground on STINGY dynos that are used for tuning NOT advertising. Either way... If I have work that I am getting paid to do, why pay to do work for someone else? It might be called advertising to some but personally I'd rather keep guys who pay me happy, that's a win win for me.

Bret
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Old 12-23-2010, 01:38 PM   #99
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Default Re: Lets talk about the "best" 15 degree LS head out there..

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I linked it a few pages back, normal alloy engineering tables showed 8% maybe 10% at best depending on work tempatures.

http://www.ofalloncasting.com/Downlo...e%20Alloys.pdf
Sean, it's the strength properties at 400°F, I had the test a while back but I can't google it now. That's where my statment:

"The T61 is the heat treatment of the castings and I don't know what AFR uses, but C355 T61 is anywhere from 35-67% higher Yield strength than 356 T6 which is what is commonly used for heads."

Came from. The strength at tempature is the key wouldn't you think?

Bret
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Old 12-23-2010, 01:42 PM   #100
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Default Re: Lets talk about the "best" 15 degree LS head out there..

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So what your saying is when you buy a complete head from someone for a fn street car you should take it apart and check everything.... How about NO.... There junk and Masts heads shit on them....
Yeap... that's what we do. You would be suprsied at the runout and guide work that is on most aftermarket "street" heads... then you look at the quality of the parts used it is pretty easy to figure out why they cost what they do. There is a lot of fancy single point CNC machines out there that do production valve jobs that are FAR from accurate, part of the reason is the speed at which they are done and the shape the guides are in.

Granted as long as the heads have nice pretty CNC marks in them customers are happy.... sad thing is I've taken those "junk" Dart heads, fixed the guides and VJ and left the port as cast and they will put down more power than the fancy stuff for the same price... just all depends on what you value as a customer. I can see being lazy and cheap are the top two values on your list.

Bret
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Old 12-23-2010, 03:03 PM   #101
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Default Re: Lets talk about the "best" 15 degree LS head out there..

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Yeap... that's what we do. You would be suprsied at the runout and guide work that is on most aftermarket "street" heads... then you look at the quality of the parts used it is pretty easy to figure out why they cost what they do. There is a lot of fancy single point CNC machines out there that do production valve jobs that are FAR from accurate, part of the reason is the speed at which they are done and the shape the guides are in.

Granted as long as the heads have nice pretty CNC marks in them customers are happy.... sad thing is I've taken those "junk" Dart heads, fixed the guides and VJ and left the port as cast and they will put down more power than the fancy stuff for the same price... just all depends on what you value as a customer. I can see being lazy and cheap are the top two values on your list.

Bret
So every set of heads needs to be "gone thru" by an expert like yourself.

Well if I made a living doing it like you do maybe I would have the same opinion.

Until you build something "fast" your opinion doesnt carry much weight. IMO.
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Old 12-23-2010, 04:41 PM   #102
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Default Re: Lets talk about the "best" 15 degree LS head out there..

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Brian, I really don't feel like handing Westech a few extra bucks to make them look better than another head which is COMMON BS these days that nobody wants to talk about, the heads stand their own ground on STINGY dynos that are used for tuning NOT advertising. Either way... If I have work that I am getting paid to do, why pay to do work for someone else? It might be called advertising to some but personally I'd rather keep guys who pay me happy, that's a win win for me.

Bret
That's what I thought you would say. Guys who really believe in their stuff have no problem putting it up against the competition, guys who don't participate usually have something to hide...they have everything to lose and nothing to win.

Richard gives the real results, regardless of who it helps or hurts.
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Old 12-23-2010, 05:16 PM   #103
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Default Re: Lets talk about the "best" 15 degree LS head out there..

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Sean, it's the strength properties at 400°F, I had the test a while back but I can't google it now. That's where my statment:

"The T61 is the heat treatment of the castings and I don't know what AFR uses, but C355 T61 is anywhere from 35-67% higher Yield strength than 356 T6 which is what is commonly used for heads."

Came from. The strength at tempature is the key wouldn't you think?

Bret
I couldn't find anything to validate the claims at elevated tempatures, Not that I think its not feasable. I just couldn't substantiate the claim.
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Old 12-23-2010, 05:48 PM   #104
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Default Re: Lets talk about the "best" 15 degree LS head out there..

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That's what I thought you would say. Guys who really believe in their stuff have no problem putting it up against the competition, guys who don't participate usually have something to hide...they have everything to lose and nothing to win.

Richard gives the real results, regardless of who it helps or hurts.
Brian.... it has nothing to do with that but if that makes you sleep at night think what you gotta.

If that's the case... why does the Procomp make more peak power than your LS6 program in the HotRod test? Hell even the TFS head didn't beat it in peak.

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...sport_ls1.html

I don't get it.... you want to flop yours out and put it on the table but both the TEA 243 and the TFS 235 heads didn't really show much over anything else in that test.

Everything to lose and nothing to win seems to fit that case a hell of a lot better than mine.... shit I've had guys do comparisons of my 243 deal vs. a TFS and it wasn't even close.... the only money that was on the line there was each customers, which is how the real world works.

Bret
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Old 12-23-2010, 06:01 PM   #105
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I couldn't find anything to validate the claims at elevated tempatures, Not that I think its not feasable. I just couldn't substantiate the claim.
If I can find the data I have around here at the shop I'll scan it and send it to you... Data published the data a few years ago so I know they have it.

Try this deal out for some data on it:
http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/m...55_356_357.pdf

356 T6 @ 400°F = 60Mpa Yeild Strength (page 6 table 24)
355 T6 @ 400°F = 90Mpa Yeild Strength (page 4 table 1

That shows a 50% increase in strength from one alloy and heat treatment to another at 400°F, at 300° the difference is 21% but the yeild strength is about double for both at that temp, while at room temp they are only 9% different.

Bret
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