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Old 10-05-2010, 11:55 PM   #1
MAXIMUM WEDGE
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Default Nitrous and Methanol

I have two bigshot plates on a Tunnel Ram big block and i was thinking of going to Methanol instead of race gas.

Is thare a jetting chart or norm jet increase for Methanol?

I have one guy telling me to just double the fuel pressure.

How does it affect timing, will it freeze the spray bars on my tunnel ram?
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Old 10-06-2010, 05:12 PM   #2
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Default Re: Nitrous and Methanol

You can't do that with the plate. There will definitly need to be a larger amount of Methonal needed but the orafaces in teh plate will need to be larger. the orafaces can freeze if they are to small and they tyipcally can't flow enough volume for what you need. NX has done extensive research on this and we have seen the improvements with the methonal. We have been running meth and NOS for a long time and have always sprayed meth with NOS, not gas. Ask yourself, why would you want two different burn rates of fuel in the chamber.
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Old 10-06-2010, 05:46 PM   #3
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Default Re: Nitrous and Methanol

Bozman what combination are you running
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Old 10-06-2010, 08:50 PM   #4
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Default Re: Nitrous and Methanol

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAXIMUM WEDGE View Post
I have two bigshot plates on a Tunnel Ram big block and i was thinking of going to Methanol instead of race gas.

Is thare a jetting chart or norm jet increase for Methanol?

I have one guy telling me to just double the fuel pressure.

How does it affect timing, will it freeze the spray bars on my tunnel ram?

You CAN do it with that plate. Just depends how much you want to spray.

I typically follow the old NOS gas jet chart and run more fuel pressure. 7-10 psi seems to work well. Also follow the normal timming retard rules for how much your gonna spray.

It will not freeze the bars on your tunnel ram. Alky is very forgiving. You will see there is alot of wiggle room on the tuneup.

I'm assuming your running the motor on alky too?
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Old 10-06-2010, 10:38 PM   #5
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Default Re: Nitrous and Methanol

Dr. Evil is giving good advice. I've used his recommendations for my own application and it works well.
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Old 10-06-2010, 11:08 PM   #6
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Default Re: Nitrous and Methanol

I can tell you that tuning Methanol enriched plate kit/ carbed engines can be tricky. Even with the correct hardware. I was involved with a car last year that ran an NX plate for designed for that purpose and it was not easy to get grip on... but I didn't go out with the car every time it went our either. So there were changes to the tune-up that I did no condone, nor recommend... and the results were less than desirable. Another car was an Enderle injected setup with a fogger that the guy enriched with gas and it worked just fine.

Reading the plugs is different than reading the plugs on gas. Personally, I won't tune on an alcohol engine that has a nitrous system being enriched with alcohol. It's just a preference thing.

My point is... take your time and do not expect to spin the planet any time soon.

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Old 10-07-2010, 01:08 AM   #7
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Default Re: Nitrous and Methanol

Let's look at why alky makes more power than gas................In an unblown application the rule of thumb is it will make about 10% more power. Two reasons it make more power. 1st It's latent heat of vaporation(cooling effect) Remember for every 10 degrees that you cool the intake charge you get about 1% of hp gain. If you get it too cold the alky tend not to vaporize. If the maximum power is 10% over gasoline how much of that is the cooling effect? 5,6,7%? The nitrous alone is better at cooling than alky is (-127degrees when it is vaporized in the manifold) So lets say the alky looses 6% of it's extra power making maybe more? this now gives use a gain of only 4%. The second thing that makes alky more powerful is that you can burn more of it than gasoline creating more heat energy, providing you can vaporize it, remember only the outside of the droplet burns, it must be vaporized to burn. the tremendous cooling effect of the nitrous may hinder this? With the race gases of today I've always had the best luck with them. However, with all that being said Alky can work In fact I've seen it work and people are continuing to develop alky combinations. The former is just food for thought and what I feel is good bench racing Hope it help in the discussion of alky vs. gasoline. Mike T
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Old 10-07-2010, 06:08 PM   #8
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Default Re: Nitrous and Methanol

I have run a 540, 588, and a 598 conventional headed motor on an alky plate. I have also run a 565 big chief motor on an alky plate. If you look at a plate made for alky you will see that there are between 8 and 12 holes in the bars or on the perimeter, the reason for this is the amount of fuel that needs to get through the oriface. Alky has an octane rating in the mid 140's, no need to take the timing out like you do on gas. I have run mine at a 150 shot and never took any timing out, 200 gets 3 degrees and 300 gets 5 degrees. Look at the plugs, they don't lie. I have seen people try to do what you are doing and toast a motor becuase they can't get the volume of methonol to the combustion chamber because the flow characteristics of the plate. For an example, On a 10psi tuneup for the alky and a single spray bar system I would be at a 99 jet, but when I used a twin bar or perimeter with two inlets it would be a 78 jet, that is with a 99 NOS jet. with 5psi you can't go over a 50 shot without getting close to hurting something because with the alky jet needing to be in the 70 range for the 100 just for a 100 shot you wouldn't have the pressure or volume to move through the system.

And this wasn't on a street car but top sportsman and top dragster stuff that goes well into the 6's
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Old 10-07-2010, 07:38 PM   #9
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Default Re: Nitrous and Methanol

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I have run a 540, 588, and a 598 conventional headed motor on an alky plate. I have also run a 565 big chief motor on an alky plate. If you look at a plate made for alky you will see that there are between 8 and 12 holes in the bars or on the perimeter, the reason for this is the amount of fuel that needs to get through the oriface. Alky has an octane rating in the mid 140's, no need to take the timing out like you do on gas. I have run mine at a 150 shot and never took any timing out, 200 gets 3 degrees and 300 gets 5 degrees. Look at the plugs, they don't lie. I have seen people try to do what you are doing and toast a motor becuase they can't get the volume of methonol to the combustion chamber because the flow characteristics of the plate. For an example, On a 10psi tuneup for the alky and a single spray bar system I would be at a 99 jet, but when I used a twin bar or perimeter with two inlets it would be a 78 jet, that is with a 99 NOS jet. with 5psi you can't go over a 50 shot without getting close to hurting something because with the alky jet needing to be in the 70 range for the 100 just for a 100 shot you wouldn't have the pressure or volume to move through the system.

And this wasn't on a street car but top sportsman and top dragster stuff that goes well into the 6's

I can't speak for the NX stuff. I've never used it.

I can however speak about the "classic" NOS Cheater and Big shot plate systems. Those are the kits I have allways used. There is NO, I repeat NO problem delivering the appropriate amount of fuel.

Bozeman, I've said it before, the people you know that have burned there stuff up on alky either didn't know what they were doing or were trying to set the world on fire with sub standard parts.

The tuneups I have suggested work. Plain and simple. No melted pistons.

Also, engine timming being a relative thing to the specific combo at hand. Different motors like different amounts of retard. And NOT pulling timming is what burns shit up. However the nice thing about alky is it is so forgiving on the tuneup.

My own stuff runs great with 38 degrees on motor. Runs ok with 38 on NOS. With 33 its doggy and slower on motor. With my exact same nitrous hit its 2 tenths and 2 mph faster with 33 then with 38 on the bottle.

I allways tell people when asked for tuneup addvice " this is what I do with mine, Yours may like something a little different but this is a base line"

Also it doesn't matter whether the kit is on a 6 second car or a 10 second bracket car. A 200 shot is a 200 shot.
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Old 10-08-2010, 02:29 AM   #10
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Default Re: Nitrous and Methanol

Although I am NOT a fan of spraying nitrous with alky as the fuel, I will agree with Dr. Evil, that nothing special is required as far as equipment. These plates deliver plenty of fuel. You just need to know what you are doing. Does not matter if you are running gas, or alky, a certain amount of oxidizer, requires a certain amount of fuel. Simple lb/hr numbers and the correct ratios. Alky is no harder to push through a plate than gas, you just need more of it. Depending on the system and who you talk to, 15-30% more fuel volume is the norm.

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Old 10-08-2010, 04:50 AM   #11
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Default Re: Nitrous and Methanol

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Originally Posted by The Bozman View Post
You can't do that with the plate. There will definitly need to be a larger amount of Methonal needed but the orafaces in teh plate will need to be larger. the orafaces can freeze if they are to small and they tyipcally can't flow enough volume for what you need. NX has done extensive research on this and we have seen the improvements with the methonal. We have been running meth and NOS for a long time and have always sprayed meth with NOS, not gas. Ask yourself, why would you want two different burn rates of fuel in the chamber.
not what we done on my dads 540, just hooked the bottle up put a 300 shot to it and away we went with it on 1 APD "dinosaur" dominator one of john kyles originals
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Old 10-08-2010, 08:25 AM   #12
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Default Re: Nitrous and Methanol

We have a couple cars running alcohol carbs with N20/Alcohol. We have not had any problems at all. A friend has a different setup then mine; he has the standard mech pump for carb and an electric pump for the NX N2O plate system.

I’m running an unusual setup with a NOS Big Shot. I’m using a BG400 pump feeding both carb and N2O system. The Pro System carb has the vacuum regulated fuel regulator and I set it to 10 psi WOT.

Here’s the jetting I’ve run in the Big Shot plate with alcohol.

47N – 61A, -4 deg, AR133, figured 100 hp to test initial system, worked perfect.

63N – 82A, -8 deg, NGK -9, figured 150 hp, again worked perfect, plugs great.

71N – 91A, -10 deg, NGK -10, figured 175-180 hp, actually one of the smoothest passes I ever made, and chassis loved the extra power. Plugs were perfect in color and could have taken less timing out, but a very safe tune. I went 4.55 @ 153 and could see it going 4.4’s with a little timing. Zero speckling on any plugs with these setups.

I don’t see any problem putting 2 systems on a tunnel ram. I wouldn’t hesitate to put a 200 hp, 47N / 61A, -8 to -10 deg, NGK -10, @10psi under two carbs to start testing.
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Old 10-08-2010, 08:38 AM   #13
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Default Re: Nitrous and Methanol

What about running a gas motor spraying alcohol / nitrous? Has anyone done this? I was thinking about doing that with my motor... Leaving it on c-16 and spraying alky.
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Old 10-08-2010, 09:28 AM   #14
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Default Re: Nitrous and Methanol

I started gas/gas, with a carb we tuned on the chassis dyno, we then tuned the spray at the track. We swapped carbs to our "old faithful" Rupert alky dominator, and put a little timing back in the base, but left the chips where they were. First pass with just a base-line tuned carb we went a full tenth faster.

Working on the blower combo right now, but I'm slowly piecing together a new n2o combo; 550ish ci, conventional heads. Going to run an enderle hat with 1 stage dry, 2nd stage with gas enrichment.
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Old 10-08-2010, 12:41 PM   #15
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Default Re: Nitrous and Methanol

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What about running a gas motor spraying alcohol / nitrous? Has anyone done this? I was thinking about doing that with my motor... Leaving it on c-16 and spraying alky.
Don't know why you would want to do this. If alky was better, in the unlimited classes where there are no rules, nitrous guys would use it.....they don't.

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