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Old 07-23-2010, 08:12 PM   #76
Chris Uratchko
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Default Re: Liberty' Gears All Motor - Rules Update

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Originally Posted by j russell View Post
lets say a BES 525 that baskins car has shows up to the class what now, a 3500 legal nmca prostck car that runs 8.40s gets to drop 475lbs
but will that happen? no

Well, my thoughts.

What we see happening is a natural progression of what happens in any n/a heads up class that I've seen, and this class in particular, has had another progression, and that is a change in perception among the racers of what type of class this is. Not the fault of anyone, it's just natural I guess.

It's a dead horse, but in the beginning for us(2005) Butch and myself had a desire to take the class very seriously, with a well developed set of rules. That feeling was not shared by most... outside and inside. And so it began.

As the class has progressed I sort of began to see things a little differently in that maybe the outlaw program was good. Less rules, less give and take trying to figure out every single smallest aspect of a combination to keep everyone running THE SAME.... AN IMPOSSIBILITY in the sportsman ranks I might add.

People came and people raced with very little expectation. Immediately BK and Shark were running 8's in 05, and there were high 9 second cars and full fields. NO real complaints in the pits because of the 1 second + disparity.... it was cool to be part of an n/a heads up class, that many could not travel and be part of in their lives for various reasons. It was fun to just let it all hang out however much that was and run on a Pro Tree... That is MY interpretation of how things were perceived in the beginning.

The fans? The fans did not go get food and drinks when A/M showed up. Instead, the stands became packed whenever BK and his 300 foot wheelie Nova came to the line and when The Shark came to the line... this of course, 2005.

2006, things got a little more serious... but the racers raced and again, a fan favorite classs they came to see A/M and Drag Radial... They came to see BK, Mag, Howdy, Sneed, Lambert, and others duke it out with Drama!!

I recall having a lot of fun in a class of misfit combinations, not worried about who had WHAT PART NUMBER CASTING on their cylinder heads, what manifold, wrong throttle bore carburetor, illegal fuel, just a bunch of STUPID CRAP that sportsman racers can't afford to worry about... Ain't nobody here that can afford to race in strict class rules where there is CONTINUAL R&D, and advancements made in every single year that makes your stuff junk the next year.... Nobody...

Strict, Class rules are what does this. Want to look at the result? Go take a look at NMRA Hot Street and NMCA Pro Stock. I don't care if the classes allow wheelie bars or not, STICK A FORK in them they are dead due to the crazy rules, crazy rule changes, and a constant level of BONDAGE to restricted parts that only the select few rich can cling to in the development mode.... I don't want to argue about it, those classes are dead and been dead for 5 years or more. NOT wheelie bars. Out of tens of thousands of racers out there who 'could', no new racers are interested in those classes.

My goal with this bologna I'm typing isn't to argue about who needs what for weight breaks, etc... it's to maybe STOP everyone for a moment and look at the bigger picture than just what you need.

We just had a door opened in the class and it's dark inside.... we just had a question asked about BBMopars.... whats the answer? What is the question, and result to THAT answer once a change is made there too?

This class cannot sustain constant change, and structured rules...

Weight breaks? Yeah... BBC Conventional head could use a break. So could a lot of other combinations. Might even be good for the class. But a storm is brewing...

As for some other points.

525 runs .60's in the heat at 3500. Not .40's. Take 350 pounds off and it's .20's in the heat at best... potentially .30's. The big blocks are not 100 pounds per tenth.


I don't have answers these are just my thoughts.
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Old 07-23-2010, 08:16 PM   #77
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Default Re: Liberty' Gears All Motor - Rules Update

Oh yeah, my point? PEOPLE and their expectations have changed in this class. That's all.
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Old 07-23-2010, 08:31 PM   #78
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Default Re: Liberty' Gears All Motor - Rules Update

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Originally Posted by j russell View Post
lets say a BES 525 that baskins car has shows up to the class what now, a 3500 legal nmca prostck car that runs 8.40s gets to drop 475lbs
but will that happen? no
Anything is possible Jason.....but I wouldnt be worried about a BES 525 conventional headed deal as a 632 or 663 BES conventional headed deal.

Thats the problem, many people look at the big picture - how many places they can race......while others focus on one race, one track and build a car to fit it.
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Old 07-23-2010, 08:35 PM   #79
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Default Re: Liberty' Gears All Motor - Rules Update

We have a near 600 inch BES conventional engine coming that makes 1225, the 525 is not a concern. Dave Theisen is coming and his 598 is making around 1175. Should be good racing.
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Old 07-23-2010, 08:36 PM   #80
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Default Re: Liberty' Gears All Motor - Rules Update

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Originally Posted by Butch Kemp View Post
Nope. I think i have the best working car in the class on a incremental stand point. Dont want to argue.You post your name and back up your data and i will.
I can put a tenth on the point leading car in the class and defending champion to the 60' clock and still get out run e.t. something's not right.
Butch....come on! You BEAT Van, he didnt beat you. You out-qualified him as well.

In addition, had you not went RED in the final, you would have beat the Alan in the Chevelle.

Your car is bad fast and you drive the shit out of it. Show up an show these guys what it can/will do. You wont beat anyone sitting at home.
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Old 07-23-2010, 08:43 PM   #81
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Default Re: Liberty' Gears All Motor - Rules Update

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Originally Posted by Chris Uratchko View Post
We have a near 600 inch BES conventional engine coming that makes 1225, the 525 is not a concern. Dave Theisen is coming and his 598 is making around 1175. Should be good racing.
The A/M class instantly has a "conventional" advantage with the stroke of a pen (keyboard)...
600" making 1225 at 3150?????? come on???? not that tough to figure out.
If most guys could put logic together and understand how much power it takes to run good e.t. anyway.!!!!!!!!
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Old 07-23-2010, 08:47 PM   #82
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Default Re: Liberty' Gears All Motor - Rules Update

Well what's the answer Butch? Because I think weight breaks are going to hurt the class, Beyond their instant gratification.... they always do.

You would think that guys who have experience in this stuff like You, Myself, Ben, and many others could put our heads together to make the right decision for the class over and beyond what a track can do....(no offense)... but we can't seem to get beyond our own desires is the problem.
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Old 07-23-2010, 08:59 PM   #83
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Default Re: Liberty' Gears All Motor - Rules Update

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Originally Posted by Chris Uratchko View Post
Well what's the answer Butch? Because I think weight breaks are going to hurt the class, Beyond their instant gratification.... they always do.

You would think that guys who have experience in this stuff like You, Myself, Ben, and many others could put our heads together to make the right decision for the class over and beyond what a track can do....(no offense)... but we can't seem to get beyond our own desires is the problem.
Chris.......I know we have thought alike for a long time and we both know what it takes to win...
To answer your question I did give the power to be a straight answer,.....yes thinking about everybody.
I recommended that the "conventional" big blocks get 50-75lbs.......NOT 150???
I also recommended that the clutch car get 25 or max50...................NOT 75????
And i recommended that all small blocks get 25-50 break................NOTHING????
Some people might think that im always just thinking about my "investment" or combination.... well thats not the case.
I know you have customers with both engine combinations and cant really be one sided.....and I respect that.
I have what i have and thats that.....If i had a "less than 100% max-effort car" I dont think i would have a leg to stand on...but again thats not the way I feel.
I as well as some others just cant determine how the rule changes are logical??or where the logic comes from??
We can put our heads together....easy things to tech with plain eye sight.....like conventional heads...as well as all the other visible things...(hood scoop/bars/etc....)BUT THE WEIGHT BREAKS OR ADDERS NEED TO BE CORRECT.
And i cant believe i am the one who seems to get called the "crybaby" when NEVER/EVER has a weight break come my way???
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Old 07-23-2010, 09:01 PM   #84
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Default Re: Liberty' Gears All Motor - Rules Update

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And i cant believe i am the one who seems to get called the "crybaby" when NEVER/EVER has a weight break come my way???
I'll give you that one.
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Old 07-23-2010, 09:05 PM   #85
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Default Re: Liberty' Gears All Motor - Rules Update

I think it is funny that when I asked if a Pontiac was a small block or big block I got flamed. Then they go out and give the BBC 150 lbs and a clutch 75lbs. Didn't BES have a 632 BBC with conventional heads and a single 4 make 1300 or 1400??? I run 8.50 in the heat with my 525 Pontiac at 3250lbs and you guys think I shoud run with the BBC, you must have fell out of a tree and hit your head on every branch on the way down.
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Old 07-23-2010, 09:07 PM   #86
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Default Re: Liberty' Gears All Motor - Rules Update

I kind of doubt that one...
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Old 07-23-2010, 09:08 PM   #87
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Default Re: Liberty' Gears All Motor - Rules Update

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I think it is funny that when I asked if a Pontiac was a small block or big block I got flamed. Then they go out and give the BBC 150 lbs and a clutch 75lbs. Didn't BES have a 632 BBC with conventional heads and a single 4 make 1300 or 1400???
Well nothing will happen till it shows up and then someone will realize that was the wrong move.Back and forth....here we go round the mulberry bush,the mulberry bush,the mulberry bush..........???
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Old 07-23-2010, 09:10 PM   #88
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Default Re: Liberty' Gears All Motor - Rules Update

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Originally Posted by John Langer View Post
Didn't BES have a 632 BBC with conventional heads and a single 4 make 1300 or 1400???
Not that Tony ever told me about during my build? I don't think he had ever hit much over 1200hp with conventional heads honestly. Its not like with conventional heads you can just keep adding the ~2.2hp for every cube you add. My build made about 35hp more than one of his current 525s, and that is with 52ci more. I bet adding another 50ci wouldnt get you another 35hp either.
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Old 07-23-2010, 09:16 PM   #89
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Default Re: Liberty' Gears All Motor - Rules Update

What about 1hp per cid over the 525? That is deffinately possible. The 525 bbc with the 355 head made 1176 with a 1150 carb and c-25. The big carb is worth 5 and the fuel is 12. So you got 18hp with 52"?? What did it average in the power band compared to the 525? When I went from a 477 to a 525 I picked up around 35 peak but 62 average.
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Old 07-23-2010, 09:19 PM   #90
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Default Re: Liberty' Gears All Motor - Rules Update

350 what head? I got a set of those too.....
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