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Old 05-19-2010, 11:21 AM   #61
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Default Re: A/M Rules

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I sure hope the "conventional" head comments arent being mixed in with the "lack of funds" complaints some have because they are definitely not one in the same. Building a fast conventional headed BB usually costs more than non-conventional and often requires more R&D.

I also understand the point though that people have built non conventional BB combos specificaly for this class because of how the rules are written. If that is how the class is going to stay because of healthy car counts, then so be it. If the car counts start hurting though, I think there should be thought put into allowing other max effort BB combos the ability to be competitive, which they are not currently.
I'm curious what you consider "competitive". Do you have a certian number within the number one qualifier or something?

Conv. vs. Chiefs: There are plenty of wild conventional heads that will out perform off the shelf big chiefs. You have to remember that some of the larger cube guys are not spending a ton of time on development, nor going max effort. They are using the cubes to compensate for it. Some do this for the ease of maintenence as well. Yes, I will agree that their is a "potenial" for someone to do it.....but I havent seen it yet - in Milan A/M (max effort - big cube / big chief).

You stated earlier that your approx. 1200 hp. At 3300 (I am assuming you have ladder bars), you should be "competitive". I would think you could run in the .30's. Which in my opinion, puts you in "the game". #1 no, but probably get you in the semi's for sure. And....shit happens!
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Old 05-19-2010, 11:59 AM   #62
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I sure hope the "conventional" head comments arent being mixed in with the "lack of funds" complaints some have because they are definitely not one in the same. Building a fast conventional headed BB usually costs more than non-conventional and often requires more R&D.

I also understand the point though that people have built non conventional BB combos specificaly for this class because of how the rules are written. If that is how the class is going to stay because of healthy car counts, then so be it. If the car counts start hurting though, I think there should be thought put into allowing other max effort BB combos the ability to be competitive, which they are not currently.
Your an idiot
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Old 05-19-2010, 12:01 PM   #63
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I have a 4-link, wheelie bars, and hoosier tires. That puts me at 3450lbs with ~1200hp.

I will know more in the weeks to come of how fast I think my car will be capable of running so I don't want to comment too much yet about it as I dont like speculating.

As for what I consider competitive, as the season progresses I think 8.1s to 8.2s are going to be what it takes to go rounds without counting on luck.

Again, I don't expect rules to be changed for me if things are going great with the class.
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Old 05-19-2010, 12:02 PM   #64
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Your an idiot
Thanks.
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Old 05-19-2010, 12:41 PM   #65
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Your an idiot
Can you at least explain why?? As of right now you have it backwards...........
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Old 05-19-2010, 01:43 PM   #66
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I have a 4-link, wheelie bars, and hoosier tires. That puts me at 3450lbs with ~1200hp.

.
Certainly doesn't seem right being almost the same weight as Alan, but keep in mind that you didn't build a milan combination. You built it for Canada without regard for Milan, and by pure luck you fit into Milans rules(what little rules there are, just making a point)

Now on to my HiJack tangent...


In the beginning of the Milan class, it was only meant for n/a racers to have a local place to sow their heads up racing oats... and have fun on a friday night. It was made clear over and over that this was never meant to be a serious class.

It was also made clear back to Milan, that we are all serious about n/a racing... rightfully so and that we needed rule structure to harness the class. Well maybe thats the correct approach and maybe it's not.

To date I've not seen a rule structure work in a true n/a heads up class, other than NHRA.

And it's because of this - There are a minority of people who have the capacity to race successfully in an n/a heads up class. And by capacity, I mean Funds, Ingenuity, Ethic, and Energy.

The majority who do not have that capacity get worn out spending the money, the time, basically their livelyhood to race car at an extreme level...

That's not a slight against anyone nor am I speaking to anyone, but lets take Butch for example(sorry Butch)

The guy has been at it for 8 years or more full throttle. The guy is a machine in all departments. Funds, Ingenutiy, Work Ethic, and Energy... I'd like to think I can compete with that but.... in the face of reality, probably not.

Regardless of a rule structure, few people are going to have the capacity to stick with it in a continual development atmosphere. That may not be a popular statement, but it's a fact, based on the years that I have been involved in this kind of racing. Pure fact. Again, that is not a negative statement toward anyone because really in some way I see as positive that people get smart, and move on with their lives with better priorities... Family, work, money, etc... Lets face it, this racing is nothing but a time of life robbery, and you could only do worse with your money by blowing it on CRACK.

My end all points are that with a rule structure, or without a rule structure, there will be bitching and complaining. There will be parity issues, and there will be a loss of competitors.... and the class will have a small field.... just based on all of the above.

And lastly I could not care less either way if the class was heavily structured or not. Won't really change the outcome.
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Old 05-19-2010, 01:49 PM   #67
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Default Re: A/M Rules

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but keep in mind that you didn't build a milan combination. You built it for Canada without regard for Milan, and by pure luck you fit into Milans rules(what little rules there are, just making a point)
Agreed! My engine would be completely different if it was built specifically for the Milan ruleset. It would be something very similar to Alan's motor.
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Old 05-19-2010, 03:14 PM   #68
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Default Re: A/M Rules

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Originally Posted by Chris Uratchko View Post
Certainly doesn't seem right being almost the same weight as Alan, but keep in mind that you didn't build a milan combination. You built it for Canada without regard for Milan, and by pure luck you fit into Milans rules(what little rules there are, just making a point)

Now on to my HiJack tangent...


In the beginning of the Milan class, it was only meant for n/a racers to have a local place to sow their heads up racing oats... and have fun on a friday night. It was made clear over and over that this was never meant to be a serious class.

It was also made clear back to Milan, that we are all serious about n/a racing... rightfully so and that we needed rule structure to harness the class. Well maybe thats the correct approach and maybe it's not.

To date I've not seen a rule structure work in a true n/a heads up class, other than NHRA.

And it's because of this - There are a minority of people who have the capacity to race successfully in an n/a heads up class. And by capacity, I mean Funds, Ingenuity, Ethic, and Energy.

The majority who do not have that capacity get worn out spending the money, the time, basically their livelyhood to race car at an extreme level...

That's not a slight against anyone nor am I speaking to anyone, but lets take Butch for example(sorry Butch)

The guy has been at it for 8 years or more full throttle. The guy is a machine in all departments. Funds, Ingenutiy, Work Ethic, and Energy... I'd like to think I can compete with that but.... in the face of reality, probably not.

Regardless of a rule structure, few people are going to have the capacity to stick with it in a continual development atmosphere. That may not be a popular statement, but it's a fact, based on the years that I have been involved in this kind of racing. Pure fact. Again, that is not a negative statement toward anyone because really in some way I see as positive that people get smart, and move on with their lives with better priorities... Family, work, money, etc... Lets face it, this racing is nothing but a time of life robbery, and you could only do worse with your money by blowing it on CRACK.

My end all points are that with a rule structure, or without a rule structure, there will be bitching and complaining. There will be parity issues, and there will be a loss of competitors.... and the class will have a small field.... just based on all of the above.

And lastly I could not care less either way if the class was heavily structured or not. Won't really change the outcome.

In a nutshell it looks like you're saying that at the time when the class was conceived there was some intent for broad participation with the expectation that local guys would do this for fun.

Obviously nature took its course at some point and like most competitive-natured people some directed combinations of their resources towards racing in this class to a point that exceeded initial expectations.

Considering all of this, I circle back to the suggestion I made earlier for a $25.00 exhaust outlet modification.
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Old 05-19-2010, 03:36 PM   #69
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In a nutshell it looks like you're saying that at the time when the class was conceived there was some intent for broad participation with the expectation that local guys would do this for fun.

You nailed it...

Like you said though, it was natural for people to begin taking it seriously.
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Old 05-19-2010, 03:49 PM   #70
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You nailed it...

Like you said though, it was natural for people to begin taking it seriously.

A natural progression for these situations is the birth of a new class that recaptures the intent of the old one & covers some of the oversights made when the old one was formed.

Just for the hell of it I'd like to shift focus in that direction for a while & bring some lessons learned from other venues to the table & write a "paper tiger" set of rules for a new low-cost class.

You interested?
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Old 05-19-2010, 03:56 PM   #71
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Default Re: A/M Rules

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Originally Posted by Chris Uratchko View Post
Certainly doesn't seem right being almost the same weight as Alan, but keep in mind that you didn't build a milan combination. You built it for Canada without regard for Milan, and by pure luck you fit into Milans rules(what little rules there are, just making a point)

Now on to my HiJack tangent...


In the beginning of the Milan class, it was only meant for n/a racers to have a local place to sow their heads up racing oats... and have fun on a friday night. It was made clear over and over that this was never meant to be a serious class.

It was also made clear back to Milan, that we are all serious about n/a racing... rightfully so and that we needed rule structure to harness the class. Well maybe thats the correct approach and maybe it's not.

To date I've not seen a rule structure work in a true n/a heads up class, other than NHRA.

And it's because of this - There are a minority of people who have the capacity to race successfully in an n/a heads up class. And by capacity, I mean Funds, Ingenuity, Ethic, and Energy.

The majority who do not have that capacity get worn out spending the money, the time, basically their livelyhood to race car at an extreme level...

That's not a slight against anyone nor am I speaking to anyone, but lets take Butch for example(sorry Butch)

The guy has been at it for 8 years or more full throttle. The guy is a machine in all departments. Funds, Ingenutiy, Work Ethic, and Energy... I'd like to think I can compete with that but.... in the face of reality, probably not.

Regardless of a rule structure, few people are going to have the capacity to stick with it in a continual development atmosphere. That may not be a popular statement, but it's a fact, based on the years that I have been involved in this kind of racing. Pure fact. Again, that is not a negative statement toward anyone because really in some way I see as positive that people get smart, and move on with their lives with better priorities... Family, work, money, etc... Lets face it, this racing is nothing but a time of life robbery, and you could only do worse with your money by blowing it on CRACK.

My end all points are that with a rule structure, or without a rule structure, there will be bitching and complaining. There will be parity issues, and there will be a loss of competitors.... and the class will have a small field.... just based on all of the above.

And lastly I could not care less either way if the class was heavily structured or not. Won't really change the outcome.
Same thing was suppose to be for DR... Now look where that's at...
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Old 05-19-2010, 05:31 PM   #72
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Default Re: A/M Rules

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Originally Posted by ROB View Post
A natural progression for these situations is the birth of a new class that recaptures the intent of the old one & covers some of the oversights made when the old one was formed.

Just for the hell of it I'd like to shift focus in that direction for a while & bring some lessons learned from other venues to the table & write a "paper tiger" set of rules for a new low-cost class.

You interested?
Absolutely! Because I think the idea has a place among many racers.

That said, personally I like the outlaw format we have now and I think it also has a place among certain types of racers... and I think it has a HUGE fan appeal... It is also a fun class to build engines for... And there are people out there building combinations for the existing rules.

But it may very well be in the minority.
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Old 05-19-2010, 05:41 PM   #73
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PS. This pic is for you Ben.....

Help me out here, I've been getting calls?
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Old 05-19-2010, 05:47 PM   #74
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I think it's a hint Ben.... "You need a...." I offered to let you try mine. Someone should use it!!!
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Old 05-19-2010, 05:59 PM   #75
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Absolutely! Because I think the idea has a place among many racers.

That said, personally I like the outlaw format we have now and I think it also has a place among certain types of racers... and I think it has a HUGE fan appeal... It is also a fun class to build engines for... And there are people out there building combinations for the existing rules.

But it may very well be in the minority.
Cool.

Let's take it "off line" and rough something together to propose to the promoters as a possible future class.

I have some thoughts in mind (like the one mentioned earlier) that may allow a whole lot of existing cars to come & race in said class without the need to build anything specific.
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