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Old 05-18-2010, 06:39 PM   #46
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Default Re: A/M Rules

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Originally Posted by comp3452 View Post
Im not bitching because i lost 1st rd. Yea it was driver error i will admit to that. My point is my car will never run a 8.20 anything the way it sits right now in any weather conditon. The best my car will go will be a high 8.30- low 8.40. All it took was for a couple people to actually build some competitive BB combos to be fast. It takes a lto more money to make a SB combo run fast. Just because kemp can run .20s doesnt mean my car will his motor is a lot newer technology. On another hand your gonna tell me that when darrin brings his BB combo out that made 1500 hp at 6500 rpm the SB's will be able to run with that i highley doubt it. The thing would run 7.80s no problem. Hell with that much power and shit ton of torque he could leave the starting line in 2nd gear and run everybody down. The only way my car would run 8.20s would be if there wasnt a penalty for the clutchless. Which i know it was my choice to put that in the car. But you also cant tell me that the clutchless is that much faster than a proflite or a torque flite. I'd have to say with all the new bad ass automatics out there that the clutchless is maybe .500S faster.
You may be on to something with trans penalty. It would be interesting to see what your car would run with an auto in it. "Maybe" its too stiff a penalty.

Butch's engine program is a few years old. His motor has made basically the same power for the last 3 years or so. Unlike most, Butch looks at EVERYTHING on his car. A hundredth here a hundredth there. Ask him, he'll tell you. He went 30's atleast 2, if not 3 years ago in the Chevy II.

As for Mag's big motor - the rules allow it. If he chooses to put that bad boy in the white car, everyone will have a problem. Keep in mind its not as easy as some think to harness a big monster like that - especially the torque. Look at Van and Alans cars, and they are no where near that cubic inch.

I wish I had a good answer for you. Its like damned if you do, damned if you dont. Its hard to justify a weight break/hit when one of each(SB / BB) was in the finals.
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Old 05-18-2010, 07:15 PM   #47
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No where near the cubic inch his motor is only 707ci im almost positve. And Alans is a 638 and i heard Vans was over 700ci's not sure about that though. Whether or not kemps motor is 2 or 3 years old it still has better heads on it than mine. My heads are from 98'. In order for me to run 8.20s i would have to get a new set done which would cost $7500 i dont have that kind of money to spend. If i was to do that i might as well sell my motor and go by an ex pro stock engine that makes 1400 h.p.
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Old 05-18-2010, 07:55 PM   #48
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Default Re: A/M Rules

A/M SUCKS
D/R RULES!
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Old 05-18-2010, 08:00 PM   #49
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Default Re: A/M Rules

I just can't hang anymore !
might go index racing or bracket or sell the car have not made up my mind yet ask me tomorrow you never know
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Old 05-18-2010, 08:20 PM   #50
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Default Re: A/M Rules

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Originally Posted by comp3452 View Post
No where near the cubic inch his motor is only 707ci im almost positve. And Alans is a 638 and i heard Vans was over 700ci's not sure about that though. Whether or not kemps motor is 2 or 3 years old it still has better heads on it than mine. My heads are from 98'. In order for me to run 8.20s i would have to get a new set done which would cost $7500 i dont have that kind of money to spend. If i was to do that i might as well sell my motor and go by an ex pro stock engine that makes 1400 h.p.
You're saying you don't want to spend 7500 dollars on the correct heads for the class, but all your competitors have spent the money, and new up coming competitors are spending the money. There can't be weight breaks for wallet sizes...

I hear your points but they kind of go out the window when you are asking for weight because of a parity issue, and THEN begin to complain about the wallet and you're telling the whole class that you are racing with old technology......... running .40's and .50's.

You've basically just acknowledged that there isn't a weight issue, but that your engine is not up to the task. If those heads are from 1998, then heck yes.... there's a lot left on the table.

It's almost a cliche' these days but this is heads up racing and that costs money.... which you already know. I don't like pulling out the wallet, who does... but you are racing against people who are willing to open their wallets up.

As for Mag, at least from the discussions I've had, that new engine was never going in the all motor car, it's for his outlaw 10.5 car. Far as I know, the All Motor car is ready to race with the small block.
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Old 05-18-2010, 08:31 PM   #51
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Default Re: A/M Rules

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Originally Posted by comp3452 View Post
No where near the cubic inch his motor is only 707ci im almost positve. And Alans is a 638 and i heard Vans was over 700ci's not sure about that though. Whether or not kemps motor is 2 or 3 years old it still has better heads on it than mine. My heads are from 98'. In order for me to run 8.20s i would have to get a new set done which would cost $7500 i dont have that kind of money to spend. If i was to do that i might as well sell my motor and go by an ex pro stock engine that makes 1400 h.p.
it's not nowhere near that big
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Old 05-18-2010, 08:37 PM   #52
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Default Re: A/M Rules

or that small APD knows it all!
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Old 05-18-2010, 09:30 PM   #53
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Default Re: A/M Rules

I do want to clarify, that my last response above was not a criticism, or to cause any trouble. I'm actually a big fan of your team and the car. You guys deserve a lot of credit for the way it runs. It's just not an easy situation for anyone in this kind of class, and passions get fired up.
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Old 05-18-2010, 09:32 PM   #54
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I have no customers in this class to protect. I like this class and want to run in it and win if I can.

I think if you add rules or changes, THAT is what kills classes. Look at car counts in other sanctions. Trying to level a heads up playing field by helping the slower racers does not work and never will. The more talented and funded racers will adopt the "weight break" loop holes meant for the little guys and beat them silly with them.

If there were only 6 cars in this class going 8.20's that would be bad why? It would be a damn good show and I bet there would be a couple more show up and try to run 8.10's and then a couple more show up to run 8.0's and so forth. It will grow with less change overall. People get fed up and spend their money elsewhere when frustrated.

But, here is my take.........

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Uratchko View Post
Lots of viewers in the thread.... what are you all thinking? Ben - what are your thoughts? Not like you to remain quiet.... unless you're up to something. Yeah you are....
Here you go:

I want to live in a house on a lake, but I cannot afford any higher payments or taxes than I already pay for what I currently have.

I want to hang out with the doctors, lawyers and celebrities at their posh country clubs but I cannot as I am just a lowly engine builder.

I want to have steak and shrimp for lunch at a nice restaurant but only have $6 to spend, looks like Subway for me.

Should I be "given" a deal on a house & property on that lake? Should I be allowed to join that club at a discounted rate? Should I be able to eat better for less?

Butch is an experienced racer with good equipment and appears to be well funded.

Alan has good equipment and appears to be well funded. I do not know about his experience but he seems to drive quite well and has run 8.18 and won a race already.

Should they be penalized because of what they are able to do with their hardware and resources?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem View Post
With deals like this out there, I cant see why anyone would run a conv. head in a car they only plan to run at Milan.
http://www.racingjunk.com/category/0...yl.-Heads.html
Maybe because that same seller has a set of conventional heads for only $2,200 for sale. That is a $2,800 savings. If someone buys those, should he be "given" a weight break to make him run with the more expensive heads?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Uratchko View Post
I am going to try and be as unbiased in this discussion as possible from the racer in me, not the engine builder.

Butch a 3500 pound car isn't going to go 1.16 60's on those tires.




I am pretty sure this car went 1.21 with out wheelie bars. Bars would improve it by .02 at least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Uratchko View Post
Now let me switch modes here to an engine builder.

I have a big SBX small block coming out that will be fast, in a fox body for this class specifically. You're going to remove weight from this combo? That would be a big mistake because this is a combo developed for the class. Where, we are talking about removing weight for small block combos that are not optimized for the class? What is all your answer to that, given the situation I'm presenting here?

What happens when you remove weight from limited small blocks and then someone comes in with an outlaw small block? That IS going to happen, from multiple people soon.... now the big blocks are struggling, and even more so in the heat.

I don't know the answer.
Politics. If it is not out there it does not exist. This just protects the person(s) already competing by instilling fear of the unknown. Deal with it when it happens. It would be a natural evolution anyways. Remember the saying: No matter how big, strong, fast, etc. you are, there is always someone better coming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Uratchko View Post
Lets address the suspension issue. The fastest 60 footing car the class has ever seen, has a suspension weight break. Is that right for the class?
Someone was obviously concerned with this. This weight "break" (unlike the other breaks & penalties) is half of the standard of the industry break in all of the other sanctions?

I find it quite humorous that a Big Block 525 c.i. NMCA car COULD show up and take 225 lbs off and I show up with my 399 c.i. small block and have to ADD 25 lbs.

I'm sure you could look at what other sanctions are doing and come up with some "help" for the small blocks and conventional headed big blocks without giving away the farm. You just cannot expect to be able to receive enough help to let your $15K engine compete against a $35K engine. The only thing that will help it is about $20K. I'm thinking I'm about $10K away from running good.
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Old 05-18-2010, 09:57 PM   #55
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Default Re: A/M Rules

DAMN!!! When you ask Ben for his opinion, you get it!

Good valid points....with pictures!

Ben Mens FTW!

PS. This pic is for you Ben.....

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Old 05-18-2010, 10:35 PM   #56
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Geez Ben where did you get those shots? Makes me cringe.

I knew you had some kind of response brewing.... was only a matter of time.
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Old 05-18-2010, 11:00 PM   #57
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Default Re: A/M Rules

Somebody hold the wine, I just ran out of cheese.


Seriously I enjoy watching you guys race and the Internet debates are quite entertaining too.


Geez Ben you saying my 15K Roush motor (built to my specs not Bens) won't be competitive? LOL

I guess that's why I keep my time in the bottle (yeah the blue one).
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Old 05-19-2010, 07:31 AM   #58
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Default Re: A/M Rules

Ben your right the 15,000 is not going to be enough to hang with the middle of the pack, and i think Allen's car is going to show some teens alot more when they have have the 60 down like that all the time
Watch the video of the 8.18 pass seems to me that 1.2 60ft was with the rear tire, congrats again!
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Old 05-19-2010, 10:46 AM   #59
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Was this class intended to be budget-oriented or low-buck at any point?

If the answer is no then there's no cause for argument over somebody spending more money to be more competitive than the next guy. Considering that, there's also no reason to ever worry about leveling the playing field unless car counts are low and/or grandstands are empty.

Classes that are intended to be inclusive to a broad range of participant incomes & backgrounds are generally created with that in mind upfront. I don't get the impression that A/M was designed with that in mind.

For the guys who are upset because their stuff isn't the fastest thing out there I would suggest that you accept the possibility that you are smart enough but do not have the financial means to pursue this class & move on.

If the guys who have resources to acquire whatever is available at whatever cost have any interest in racing against the guys with conventional heads & small blocks with older combinations, then I have a suggestion: ADD A RULE CHANGE THAT REQUIRES 2" DIAMETER PIPE NO SHORTER THAN 6" LONG TO THE HEADER COLLECTORS.

This is a LOT cheaper & WAY EASIER to add to the cars & check in tech than a million different engine/trans/cylinder head/CID combinations with at least 5 different possibilities for rear suspension combinations.
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Old 05-19-2010, 10:53 AM   #60
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Default Re: A/M Rules

I sure hope the "conventional" head comments arent being mixed in with the "lack of funds" complaints some have because they are definitely not one in the same. Building a fast conventional headed BB usually costs more than non-conventional and often requires more R&D.

I also understand the point though that people have built non conventional BB combos specificaly for this class because of how the rules are written. If that is how the class is going to stay because of healthy car counts, then so be it. If the car counts start hurting though, I think there should be thought put into allowing other max effort BB combos the ability to be competitive, which they are not currently.
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