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Old 05-18-2010, 06:32 AM   #31
Butch Kemp
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Default Re: A/M Rules

[QUOTE=Chris Uratchko;4127190]IMHO,

I don't know what to do with the small block heads, because you have a SB2 head running 40's and 50's, and a wedge head running .20's. What's the answer to that?


And you also have "non conventional BB heads running no-where near 8.18".......either they all get help or ??????
Again.....I'm not the one who started this post.....so it must be obvious other guys are (were) thinking that without my help.??
About the suspension stuff I think other guys just need to work on their stuff.....BOTTOM LINE.
The tire is capable of 1.13-1.15 60' times.........the cars converters and gears need to reflect that IMO.
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Old 05-18-2010, 08:52 AM   #32
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Default Re: A/M Rules

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Originally Posted by John Langer View Post
So people are asking for a conventional BBC to get a weight break but a traditional pontiac has to weight the same as a BBC without a weight break???

To my knowledge, there are no pontiacs in A/M.

Aren't there enough issues to figure out with small block versus big block? That part is hard enough to figure out and now you want a to inject a white elephant into the circus? That's not helping anything.
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Old 05-18-2010, 09:00 AM   #33
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Default Re: A/M Rules

I know a BB conventional head break would make me much more interested in coming to run. I also think a 75lbs adder for a 4link (100lbs heavier than a stock suspension going 1.16 60s) is quite harsh.
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Old 05-18-2010, 09:19 AM   #34
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Default Re: A/M Rules

I think this is a little pre-mature if you ask me.

There's only been one race for god sake! Chris is right, as soon as the heat rolls in, Alan and Van will be slipping and slidding again.

The rules have been the same pretty much since the beginning. You want to run the class, build a car to run the class. Some people have, more are coming.

People talk about the money they havent spent yet. What about those that have already spent it? Is your money any different from theirs? This class isnt cheap to start with and its not going to get any cheaper.....EVER, no matter the rule change.

This is racing......and the first one to the stripe wins. The fastest car doesnt always win. Many other factors come into play (wheelies, tires spin, poor reaction time and red lights). Every combination has its pro's and con's. Its how you manage your combo that makes you a player in the game.

Van got beat on a hole shot, to a slower car (that night). Butch and Lance red lit. Sounds to me like the drivers lost the races, not the cars/combo's. I'm not picking on anybody, thats just what happened......and can happen to anyone!

Mag has had the fastest/quickest car for the last few years, with a small block. Did he dominate the class? No, they struggled getting down the track (sometimes) with wheelies and tire spin. Patterson didnt have the fastest car, but won two back to back championships. Butch won the championship before that....and Howdy's car went faster (if I remember correctly).

2005 Lane (big block)
2006 Kemp (small block)
2007 Patterson (small block)
2008 Patterson (small block)
2009 Van (big block)

Looks like 3 small blocks to 2 big blocks!

When are the big blocks gonna get a break to even the score?
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Old 05-18-2010, 09:34 AM   #35
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Default Re: A/M Rules

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Originally Posted by Chris Uratchko View Post
To my knowledge, there are no pontiacs in A/M.

Aren't there enough issues to figure out with small block versus big block? That part is hard enough to figure out and now you want a to inject a white elephant into the circus? That's not helping anything.
You know I like kicking the hornets nest. Milan kept the rules very simple for them to police. Small blocks = x and big blocks = y. They have a few weight deviations and that is it. Is that best for the racer... no, there are way too many loop holes to take advantage of. Is it best for the track... as of right now, yes. All n/a heads up classes turn into a 4-6 car show after a few years. N/A heads up racing will never grow, only deminish due to 1) the economy, 2) rules, 3) ET's, 4) racing budgets, 5) the cost to participate competatively, 6) lack of sponsor support/payouts... I can go on and on and on.
My observation is this, the ones that don't show up and stomp their feet are usually the ones that don't have a chance in the first place and in reality wouldn't show up anyway but just want an excuse to bitch about for why they aren't there. I have seen it hundreds of times, the series makes a concession for a person or combo, they still don't show up and someone exploits a new rule and it either costs other people to spend a fortune or stop racing.
I love NHRA pro stock, 1 motor size, 1 trans, 1 tire size. If your "ford" can't run with the DRCE2 motors, tuff shit, If your Mopar can't run with the DRCE3, tuff shit.
The rules for Milan are simple, if you want a big block, build it big and put a killer head on it. If you want to run a small block, build it big and put a killer head on it. Conventional BBC heads make alot less power then a Big Chief style head, don't build a conventional headed motor. An aussie 4.5 small block head makes a ton more power then a 23* edelbrock performer rpm head. Don't build the 23* motor.
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Old 05-18-2010, 09:35 AM   #36
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Default Re: A/M Rules

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I think this is a little pre-mature if you ask me.

There's only been one race for god sake! Chris is right, as soon as the heat rolls in, Alan and Van will be slipping and slidding again.

The rules have been the same pretty much since the beginning. You want to run the class, build a car to run the class. Some people have, more are coming.

People talk about the money they havent spent yet. What about those that have already spent it? Is your money any different from theirs? This class isnt cheap to start with and its not going to get any cheaper.....EVER, no matter the rule change.

This is racing......and the first one to the stripe wins. The fastest car doesnt always win. Many other factors come into play (wheelies, tires spin, poor reaction time and red lights). Every combination has its pro's and con's. Its how you manage your combo that makes you a player in the game.

Van got beat on a hole shot, to a slower car (that night). Butch and Lance red lit. Sounds to me like the drivers lost the races, not the cars/combo's. I'm not picking on anybody, thats just what happened......and can happen to anyone!

Mag has had the fastest/quickest car for the last few years, with a small block. Did he dominate the class? No, they struggled getting down the track (sometimes) with wheelies and tire spin. Patterson didnt have the fastest car, but won two back to back championships. Butch won the championship before that....and Howdy's car went faster (if I remember correctly).

2005 Lane (big block)
2006 Kemp (small block)
2007 Patterson (small block)
2008 Patterson (small block)
2009 Van (big block)

Looks like 3 small blocks to 2 big blocks!

When are the big blocks gonna get a break to even the score?
Thats five years it can't be even. LoL J/k. Dont pay me any attention I just like the class.
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Old 05-18-2010, 10:52 AM   #37
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Default Re: A/M Rules

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I think they need at least 100lbs. to start with. Or if they dont want to add the weight then take a 100 lbs. off the small block cars. This will make the field a lot closer and there will also be a lot closer races.
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I understand im 2 tenths from them but to get 2 more tenths out of my car will take a lot more money. It takes more money to make a small block run as fast as the big blocks.
Lance - "What if" you hadn't red lit against Alan and beat him? That would have put you and Butch in the Final. Please tell me how a small block break would have helped you? Butch went .29 and was on a mission to go .24-25 in the Final.

Or..."What if" you had beaten Alan, but Van had not got tree'd by Butch. Then Van spins in the Final against you.....and you win.

Would this topic even exist with either of the two scenario's above?

I am not picking on you....just responding to the thread you started. You bought a two time Champion car! Why are you at a disadvantage now? When Patterson ran your combo, the BB were right with him. Now that they've stepped up, its a problem? Dont say your SB cant run .20's, because Kemp is doing it.

I will say this. You have a great car and its DEADLY consistant. YOU drive the living shit out of that car. YOU are a threat to the class just like many of the others. You have a far better chance at winning than "most" of the class. Your resource pool is large and you have access to alot of things others dont. I dont see you at any disadvantage. You'll get there and everyone will be chasing you.

Good luck. Your team works hard, very hard and it will pay off.
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Old 05-18-2010, 11:38 AM   #38
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Default Re: A/M Rules

So Rick, where do you think the BB conventional head stands?
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Old 05-18-2010, 11:58 AM   #39
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Default Re: A/M Rules

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So Rick, where do you think the BB conventional head stands?
I'm not sure how to answer that....
Yes, they are at a disadvantage against a big chief type head. However, the current class rules allow you to run either. Its all about decisions: Conv. Heads can run most anywhere, B/C's cannot.

There are some REALLY good conv. heads out there. The NMCA p/s stuff is all conv. head. So, can it be done? I think, yes....but with a cost. Remember the fastest car doesnt always win. You just have to be in the game.

With deals like this out there, I cant see why anyone would run a conv. head in a car they only plan to run at Milan.
http://www.racingjunk.com/category/0...yl.-Heads.html

This a similar situation to the SB vs. BB issue. If they give them a break, someone will capitalize on it.

IMO....50-75lbs would probably be fair, BUT its another damn rule for everyone to bitch about.
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Old 05-18-2010, 12:08 PM   #40
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Default Re: A/M Rules

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There are some REALLY good conv. heads out there. The NMCA p/s stuff is all conv. head. So, can it be done? I think, yes....but with a cost. Remember the fastest car doesnt always win. You just have to be in the game.
There is no conventional BB head in existance that can run with an equal effort non-conventional BB head. The MAX effort NMCA conventional BB stuff with 525ci makes 1150-1170hp and even with more cubes it is very hard to get much more than 1200hp (trust me on this). Meanwhile, the non conventional stuff can make 1350hp+ with ease. That 150hp+ of extra potential has to be worth more than 50-75lbs IMO. I know it would never happen, but it would take more like 250-300lbs to even things out with Big Block heads based on potential HP of the two different types of heads.

Don't get me wrong, I am not whining about the rules. If the class participation is strong with the current ruleset, leave it as is, but if the rules are going to be opened up again, this needs to be addressed IMO.
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Old 05-18-2010, 12:30 PM   #41
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Default Re: A/M Rules

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I'm not sure how to answer that....
Yes, they are at a disadvantage against a big chief type head. However, the current class rules allow you to run either. Its all about decisions: Conv. Heads can run most anywhere, B/C's cannot.

There are some REALLY good conv. heads out there. The NMCA p/s stuff is all conv. head. So, can it be done? I think, yes....but with a cost. Remember the fastest car doesnt always win. You just have to be in the game.

With deals like this out there, I cant see why anyone would run a conv. head in a car they only plan to run at Milan.
http://www.racingjunk.com/category/0...yl.-Heads.html

This a similar situation to the SB vs. BB issue. If they give them a break, someone will capitalize on it.

IMO....50-75lbs would probably be fair, BUT its another damn rule for everyone to bitch about.
I agree nobody wants to see more rules. I think there are a couple cars that are sitting out because of the Conv. Heads not being competative. I would hate to see the car count get any lower. I know it's only the first race.
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Old 05-18-2010, 12:31 PM   #42
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Default Re: A/M Rules

Lots of viewers in the thread.... what are you all thinking? Ben - what are your thoughts? Not like you to remain quiet.... unless you're up to something. Yeah you are....
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Old 05-18-2010, 01:43 PM   #43
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Lots of viewers in the thread.... what are you all thinking? Ben - what are your thoughts? Not like you to remain quiet.... unless you're up to something. Yeah you are....

My thoughts are don't bring a knife to a gun fight. It's not like non-conv BB and SB ford or chevy heads are unavailable and out of reach for everyone except the wealthiest. Hell, try putting together a Mopar! We probably have more in our conv heads then you have in B/Cs or B/Ts This class will never be cheap, and the sooner that people realize a 454 conv head isn't going to get it done, the better.

No way can more weight be added to BB cars, they're already way too heavy. If there has to be a weight change, it would have to be a reduction for the SBs, but hopefully no change will take place.

I found it somewhat ironic that Butch, running as fast as the fastest non-conv headed BB combos with a new program that is multi-class thinks he needs a weight break ? I knew as soon as I saw 8.18 on the scoreboard that this thread would appear.

Hopefully one fast lap in the cool of a spring night with good air won't cause a knee jerk reaction and result in some more fucking rules. If the non-conv headed BB combos dominate throughout the season, THEN make the necessary adjustments. Doing it after only one race because of one fast pass is just stupid.
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Old 05-18-2010, 02:03 PM   #44
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Any ideas on how to make a Chevelle lighter? I can't even get the thing to 3350lbs! I would like to see a conventional head weight break, then I really need to race a different car to take advantage of the new weight huh?
Hell, I thought the 8.18 was pretty cool. However, did you notice he had problems leaving the line in the final? There is still luck out there for the slower cars!
I think Butch's car was the most consistant from start to finish. The lighter cars will have the advantage for starting line consistancy for sure.... just wait until the hot sun.
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Old 05-18-2010, 05:42 PM   #45
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Lance - "What if" you hadn't red lit against Alan and beat him? That would have put you and Butch in the Final. Please tell me how a small block break would have helped you? Butch went .29 and was on a mission to go .24-25 in the Final.

Or..."What if" you had beaten Alan, but Van had not got tree'd by Butch. Then Van spins in the Final against you.....and you win.

Would this topic even exist with either of the two scenario's above?

I am not picking on you....just responding to the thread you started. You bought a two time Champion car! Why are you at a disadvantage now? When Patterson ran your combo, the BB were right with him. Now that they've stepped up, its a problem? Dont say your SB cant run .20's, because Kemp is doing it.

I will say this. You have a great car and its DEADLY consistant. YOU drive the living shit out of that car. YOU are a threat to the class just like many of the others. You have a far better chance at winning than "most" of the class. Your resource pool is large and you have access to alot of things others dont. I dont see you at any disadvantage. You'll get there and everyone will be chasing you.

Good luck. Your team works hard, very hard and it will pay off.
Im not bitching because i lost 1st rd. Yea it was driver error i will admit to that. My point is my car will never run a 8.20 anything the way it sits right now in any weather conditon. The best my car will go will be a high 8.30- low 8.40. All it took was for a couple people to actually build some competitive BB combos to be fast. It takes a lto more money to make a SB combo run fast. Just because kemp can run .20s doesnt mean my car will his motor is a lot newer technology. On another hand your gonna tell me that when darrin brings his BB combo out that made 1500 hp at 6500 rpm the SB's will be able to run with that i highley doubt it. The thing would run 7.80s no problem. Hell with that much power and shit ton of torque he could leave the starting line in 2nd gear and run everybody down. The only way my car would run 8.20s would be if there wasnt a penalty for the clutchless. Which i know it was my choice to put that in the car. But you also cant tell me that the clutchless is that much faster than a proflite or a torque flite. I'd have to say with all the new bad ass automatics out there that the clutchless is maybe .500S faster.
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