"Spooling wastegate" question for AMS-1000 users - Page 5 - Yellow Bullet Forums

Go Back   Yellow Bullet Forums > Technical Section > Turbo Charged - Blitzkrieg Motorsports

Turbo Charged - Blitzkrieg Motorsports

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-04-2009, 12:11 AM   #61
tjabo
Junior Member
Burnout box
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 11
Default Re: "Spooling wastegate" question for AMS-1000 users

I honestly have no personal experience drag racing with an automatic, but this is pretty much how one of my friends who drag races a FWD small motor/big turbo car with an automatic was able to get the boost he wanted on the line when his converter otherwise seemed a bit too tight.

It just seemed to make logical sense to me, but maybe there's something I'm overlooking, or it seems like someone would have suggested this approach already in this thread. There's obviously a lot of really smart tuners on this board!
tjabo is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 12-04-2009, 12:24 AM   #62
Patrick Barnhill
Member
Pullin gears
 
Patrick Barnhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 975
Default Re: "Spooling wastegate" question for AMS-1000 users

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotts87LX View Post
I run NGK #10's just like everybody else I can think of, so I can't imagine the heat range of the plug is too hot. The A/F at 29psi is 10.5:1 and I tune it that rich for thermal management. I don't want a cloud of black smoke going down the track, but I do want some extra fuel to help control cylinder temperature. If there was no black smoke going down the track then I would easily believe I was too lean regardless of what the wide band was reporting on the data logs, but that's not the case.

My head gaskets are .062" thick, and I suppose it might pay dividends to try a thicker gasket to drop some compression. However, too much space between the quench area of the head and piston can actually create detonation, so I'm a little leery of going too thick on the head gasket. If .090" thick works well in your combo, that is at least good news if I ever want to try that thick a gasket.

I'm probably going to come off as stupid for asking this, but I don't know the answer and if I don't ask, then I'll just remain ignorant on the subject so I'm going to ask. What do you mean when you say "cut the threads on the plug and read it"?

I like the idea of 9/16 studs, and I think if I had a Yates or Brodix Neal, or Blue Thunder type cylinder head that has the bulk of structure to withstand the extra torque that would be fine. However, I have TFS R heads and I think that regardless of the size of the studs, the head itself would not be rigid enough to maintain it's shape at that high a torque. I use ARP 1/2" studs with ARP moly lube and torque them to 110 ft lbs on both the long and the short studs. I've played around with torquing the long ones 5lbs more than the short ones, but it didn't seem to change much. I was only getting 5 or 6 runs out of the coppers when I had O-rings and receiver grooves (with the problems described earlier), but I've had as many as 34 runs on a set of cometics and only lifted the head with I got carried away with too much timing up top.

As far as the 2.5" crossover thing is concerned, Chuck Samuels had a 2.5" crossover on Kevin Marsh's old white yellow and blue car that won the WFC and that car ran 6.40's at over 220mph.

We have run 38 lbs on a SBF with well over 10.1 CR and had no issues. The car ran 4.80's on 325's with an F2 and was a great combo. The tuneup seems way to rich to make any real power. Don't worry about timing untill you get the fuel right. When I figure you compression ratio with boost it is only 31.1. This is well within the safe zones for C-16. Most of the engines that we run at are upwards of 34-35.1 CR with boost and run much leaner with more timing than you are running. I would rather see a car run leaner with less timing than the opposite. What cc's are the chambers in your heads?
__________________
Patrick Barnhill
PTP Racing 614-554-0713
Dealer for:
Big Stuff 3
Procharger, Precision Turbo, Diamond Pistons, The Supercharger Store Geardrive, Wilson Manifolds, NLR "AMS 1000", Stainless Works, Jesel, Magna Fuel, Cammotion, Tubing Jon, Team Z Motorsports, , Pro Torque Converters
Patrick Barnhill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2009, 12:39 AM   #63
SSOCOBRA
Senior Member
Smoked Another SBC
 
SSOCOBRA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: TN
Posts: 9,564
Default Re: "Spooling wastegate" question for AMS-1000 users

JK you lurker lol
SSOCOBRA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2009, 12:41 AM   #64
Scotts87LX
Workin' on it!
Smoked Another SBC
 
Scotts87LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Jackson, TN
Posts: 4,283
Default Re: "Spooling wastegate" question for AMS-1000 users

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Barnhill View Post
We have run 38 lbs on a SBF with well over 10.1 CR and had no issues. The car ran 4.80's on 325's with an F2 and was a great combo. The tuneup seems way to rich to make any real power. Don't worry about timing untill you get the fuel right. When I figure you compression ratio with boost it is only 31.1. This is well within the safe zones for C-16. Most of the engines that we run at are upwards of 34-35.1 CR with boost and run much leaner with more timing than you are running. I would rather see a car run leaner with less timing than the opposite. What cc's are the chambers in your heads?
I run C-16 and the chambers are 60cc.
__________________
Scott Russell
Special thanks to BB&T Racing, without whom this project would never have been possible. Thanks to Jim Kuntz for the dedication to building my engine as though it were his own. Thanks to Mark Micke of M&M Transmission. Also special thanks to my friend Dean Fisher. I could never have built this car without your friendship, motivation, and awesome fab work. And to Dave Zimmerman, cause without his help, I'd still be spinning my wheels!
Scotts87LX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2009, 12:42 AM   #65
331cobra
Senior Member
Smoked another BBC
 
331cobra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,692
Default Re: "Spooling wastegate" question for AMS-1000 users

Quote:
Originally Posted by SSOCOBRA View Post
JK you lurker lol

I'm just trying to keep up with how many explanations and solutions that can can be typed to explain why a car will or wont spool!
__________________
KB Xtreme Performance 1-662-750-4257
Call us for any performance needs.
Custom engines or parts from Bennett Racing
Remote or onsite tuning, turbochargers, intercoolers, efi systems, data acquisition, boost controllers, race transmissions, torque converters, fuel delivery systems, complete car builds!

331cobra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2009, 12:46 AM   #66
SomeWhatStock
Peeing In Your Cheerios
Smoked Another SBC
 
SomeWhatStock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 8,654
Default Re: "Spooling wastegate" question for AMS-1000 users

Quote:
Originally Posted by 331cobra View Post
I'm just trying to keep up with how many explanations and solutions that can can be typed to explain why a car will or wont spool!
The only legit explanations are that the car is either down by 300 cubes or missing its nitrous kit.
__________________
MustangJunkies.net
ProTorque
Ultimate Converter Concepts
Forced Inductions
Downs Ford Racing
SomeWhatStock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2009, 12:59 AM   #67
ASH
mfi turbos rule
Smoked Another SBC
 
ASH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: australia
Posts: 4,488
Default Re: "Spooling wastegate" question for AMS-1000 users

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Barnhill View Post
We have run 38 lbs on a SBF with well over 10.1 CR and had no issues. The car ran 4.80's on 325's with an F2 and was a great combo. The tuneup seems way to rich to make any real power. Don't worry about timing untill you get the fuel right. When I figure you compression ratio with boost it is only 31.1. This is well within the safe zones for C-16. Most of the engines that we run at are upwards of 34-35.1 CR with boost and run much leaner with more timing than you are running. I would rather see a car run leaner with less timing than the opposite. What cc's are the chambers in your heads?

Patrick,
In regards to the statement about less timing and less fuel... Do you know any information about the the power curves, from those engines, where they alot more 'peaky", and not as broad ??

thanks
__________________
MFI fuel injection
http://www.quillenmotorsports.com/
ASH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2009, 01:48 AM   #68
vance hewitt
Senior Member
Smoked another BBC
 
vance hewitt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rifle Colorado
Posts: 1,820
Default Re: "Spooling wastegate" question for AMS-1000 users

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Barnhill View Post
We have run 38 lbs on a SBF with well over 10.1 CR and had no issues. The car ran 4.80's on 325's with an F2 and was a great combo. The tuneup seems way to rich to make any real power. Don't worry about timing untill you get the fuel right. When I figure you compression ratio with boost it is only 31.1. This is well within the safe zones for C-16. Most of the engines that we run at are upwards of 34-35.1 CR with boost and run much leaner with more timing than you are running. I would rather see a car run leaner with less timing than the opposite. What cc's are the chambers in your heads?
holy shit Patrick are you sure it wasnt a diesel you were working on......35-1 cr just doesnt sound rightlol....I will be the one ducking behind the k rail......just kidding
__________________
soon to be 481x twin promod 88's
mikes glide
7.75 @ 192.71
at 3610 lbs and dieting as we speak
my m1 tank on leaf springs
as per dustin bradford
vance hewitt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2009, 01:57 AM   #69
Patrick Barnhill
Member
Pullin gears
 
Patrick Barnhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 975
Default Re: "Spooling wastegate" question for AMS-1000 users

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASH View Post
Patrick,
In regards to the statement about less timing and less fuel... Do you know any information about the the power curves, from those engines, where they alot more 'peaky", and not as broad ??

thanks

The power curves were pretty broad. Most turbo engines are not peaky like the blowers can be at times. I have found that when you run the engines in this manner you see less detonation than a rich engine trying to burn off fuel with timing. The engines perform better and hurt fewer parts in my experience.
__________________
Patrick Barnhill
PTP Racing 614-554-0713
Dealer for:
Big Stuff 3
Procharger, Precision Turbo, Diamond Pistons, The Supercharger Store Geardrive, Wilson Manifolds, NLR "AMS 1000", Stainless Works, Jesel, Magna Fuel, Cammotion, Tubing Jon, Team Z Motorsports, , Pro Torque Converters
Patrick Barnhill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2009, 02:08 AM   #70
Patrick Barnhill
Member
Pullin gears
 
Patrick Barnhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 975
Default Re: "Spooling wastegate" question for AMS-1000 users

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotts87LX View Post
I run C-16 and the chambers are 60cc.

Put the damn TCI converter in a call it a day. LOL With a 60 cc chamber you are not going to run alot of timing. Some of the SB2.2 engines we have done have 56 cc chambers and make great power with 18-19 degrees of timing up top. Butner's car has gone 205 with 19 degrees and 33 lbs of boost. I would focus on working on your front half numbers and get them figured out before worring about MPH. Use Johnny K's advice, he is one of the best working with your particular combo.
__________________
Patrick Barnhill
PTP Racing 614-554-0713
Dealer for:
Big Stuff 3
Procharger, Precision Turbo, Diamond Pistons, The Supercharger Store Geardrive, Wilson Manifolds, NLR "AMS 1000", Stainless Works, Jesel, Magna Fuel, Cammotion, Tubing Jon, Team Z Motorsports, , Pro Torque Converters
Patrick Barnhill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2009, 08:21 AM   #71
muscrat
Junior Member
Launchin
 
muscrat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: tx
Posts: 482
Default Re: "Spooling wastegate" question for AMS-1000 users

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Barnhill View Post
Put the damn TCI converter in a call it a day. LOL With a 60 cc chamber you are not going to run alot of timing. Some of the SB2.2 engines we have done have 56 cc chambers and make great power with 18-19 degrees of timing up top. Butner's car has gone 205 with 19 degrees and 33 lbs of boost. I would focus on working on your front half numbers and get them figured out before worring about MPH. Use Johnny K's advice, he is one of the best working with your particular combo.
I know the problems I have had and If I couldget JK on the phone for 20 minutes I'd probably send him $50. Advice from him would be like an early christmas present. 325-370-5234 is my number. I will be standing by with a pen.

Anyways, I started running my A/F at 13.5 and timing at 40 degrees and it got better. then I found out I had a cam that was 280 @.050 intake and 268 @.050 exhaust. so I now have a 261/263 @ .050. hopefully that will make a difference on the spoollin issue.

OK Johnny K, the number is listed or pm me yours and I'll call you. LOL
muscrat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2009, 08:59 AM   #72
tjabo
Junior Member
Burnout box
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 11
Default Re: "Spooling wastegate" question for AMS-1000 users

Sorry if I'm way off here guys, but it strikes me that maybe in terms of spooling your big turbos, you aren't taking full advantage of the self-compounding loop nature of the turbo for that purpose?

What I mean is that from the sounds of it you are trying to increase spool quickness by making your engines into the most efficient naturally aspirated engines you can in the spool areas of your maps. While this will probably increase your exhaust energy a slight bit through making the most efficient "bang" possible in the combustion chamber, it might not be the most direct way to drive the turbine to start the spool process.

To me spoolup seems like a vicious cycle where the turbine starts to turn fast enough to make positive pressure, and when that positive pressure gets high enough, the cycle begins whereby the increased exhaust gas volume and pressure (and probably therefore heat) begin to spin the turbine ever harder, which makes even more exhaust gas, and so on until the wastegate has to be begin diverting the ever-increasing exhaust gas around the turbine wheel.

The point I'm getting at is that the engine in it's normally aspirated state may not created enough exhaust volume/pressure at the low RPMs we're talking about (or maybe even higher RPMs) to really spin the compressor to truly meaningful levels. It may well be in a lot of cases that the vicious cycle is really what provides the feedback loop through which the exhaust gasses are increased in volume enough to spin up the turbo to the levels you're wanting to launch with.

Because of all of this, while some of you may be able to create enough exhaust gasses in a normally aspirated fashion utilizing a lot of timing advance and a good lean mixture, others may not be able to because of smaller engines relative to the turbo, or at lease tubine size. In that case, maybe the turbine can be driven more directly to jump-start the spoolup process by sending more of the energy out to the turbine.

The anti-lag settings I mentioned before when taken to the extreme put the explosion quite extremely out into the exhaust port, primary, and maybe even the collector and turbine. I would think that a less aggressive version should certainly help force the turbine to start spinning and making boost, which makes more exhaust volume, and voila! Seems like it would help some of you who are having trouble, more than changind a buch of hard parts that will probably limit your ability to make power on the big end. . .

Oh yeah, regarding retarding the cam to assist spool as mentioned early in the thread, that seems to me to fall into the same category of allowing more exhaust energy into the exhaust to directly drive the turbine, versus the other guys who are advancing the cam to make a more efficient N/A motor which gives a tiny increase in exhaust energy.

Am I all wrong on this stuff? (I can accept it if I am, I just like the opportunity to discuss it and learn!)
tjabo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2009, 10:18 AM   #73
BBF
Senior Member
Smoked another BBC
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,735
Default Re: "Spooling wastegate" question for AMS-1000 users

I'm hoping my reply creates page 6. Scott i read somewhere you went to one of these EFI tuning schools. Is this where you get all your theorys? Remember those who can do those who can't teach.
BBF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2009, 10:37 AM   #74
Scotts87LX
Workin' on it!
Smoked Another SBC
 
Scotts87LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Jackson, TN
Posts: 4,283
Default Re: "Spooling wastegate" question for AMS-1000 users

Quote:
Originally Posted by muscrat View Post
I know the problems I have had and If I couldget JK on the phone for 20 minutes I'd probably send him $50. Advice from him would be like an early christmas present. 325-370-5234 is my number. I will be standing by with a pen.

Anyways, I started running my A/F at 13.5 and timing at 40 degrees and it got better. then I found out I had a cam that was 280 @.050 intake and 268 @.050 exhaust. so I now have a 261/263 @ .050. hopefully that will make a difference on the spoollin issue.

OK Johnny K, the number is listed or pm me yours and I'll call you. LOL
The answer to my slower spooling is in the torque converter. My Chance converter spools "OK" (after spending another $900+ on it after the original purchase price) but the fact is, I know, and have known, since John loaned me the TCI converter that issue was in the converter. John was trying very hard to help me get on the right track and loaned me several parts to try. I know he is VERY frustrated with me for not having just bought a converter right away. My reason for NOT doing that was, I was trying to save money, since I have very little disposable income. In reality, too little to be trying to race at this level. In hind site, I ended up spending far MORE money trying to save money. John told me this would happen and I didn't listen. If you do a search on some of my older threads I had made the comment several times "note to self: always listen to John." Well tried to save a $ and didn't do what he told me I should have (back in March of this year) and now I've spent so much trying to keep from spending, I'm too broke to do anything.

John, I was never trying to prove you wrong, I was only trying to save what little money I had. "Had" being the key word.

I've learned so much in the last year I can't even begin to cover it all. One of the first things I should have payed attention to after borrowing the TCI from John was the slip %. Looking back at the logs, the Chance already had a higher slip percentage number BEFORE I sent it back and spent $900+ more on it (which BTW would buy a new PTC weld together converter). After I got my Chance back from Marty the car would spool, but the slip % out the back was worse (about 18% vs. 11% for the TCI John loaned me).

I've had PM's from 3 people who have pointed out that Marty does a great job with the higher HP stuff for bigger cube engines, but for the guys like me who are well under 400cid, his converters are too tight to spool well, and if you have him loosen them, you wind up with a converter that is loose all over, which is no good either. I don't know the technology well enough to even attempt to explain it, but the fact is, the guys at TCI and PTC can build a converter that is super loose down low for great spooling with small cid/bigger turbo combo, but still lock up HARD after leaving the line.

I'm done fighting the Chance converter. John, you were right all along and as I've already said to you personally on more than one occasion, "thank you" for all you have done to help me.
__________________
Scott Russell
Special thanks to BB&T Racing, without whom this project would never have been possible. Thanks to Jim Kuntz for the dedication to building my engine as though it were his own. Thanks to Mark Micke of M&M Transmission. Also special thanks to my friend Dean Fisher. I could never have built this car without your friendship, motivation, and awesome fab work. And to Dave Zimmerman, cause without his help, I'd still be spinning my wheels!
Scotts87LX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2009, 11:22 AM   #75
Scotts87LX
Workin' on it!
Smoked Another SBC
 
Scotts87LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Jackson, TN
Posts: 4,283
Default Re: "Spooling wastegate" question for AMS-1000 users

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBF View Post
I'm hoping my reply creates page 6. Scott i read somewhere you went to one of these EFI tuning schools. Is this where you get all your theory's? Remember those who can do those who can't teach.
I think what you meant to say was "those who can't do, teach" but I get the sentiment.

My reason for taking the EFI 101 class was for the reason the name would imply. I was at a "101" level, and I'm not too far ahead of that now. Since that particular class was held at the R&D shop at Comp Cams and I run a FAST XFI, I thought it might be a good opportunity to meet some of the guys at Comp and get a little more up close and personal view of how to better learn and use the FAST. As it turned out, I met David Page there and he has been a big help to me, so not only did I get some knowledge I didn't have, I got a great contact as well.

I really don't have any personal theory's, I just read a lot (too much, it seems), and I'm not afraid to try something if it looks like it has merit. The trick is to separate the "know it all" idiots from the people who have good experience and don't claim to have all the answers, but rather enjoy helping someone if they see they can. John Kolivas and Jim Monson are two fine examples of the later. If someone has a air of humility, and fallibility about them, I'm much more likely to listen to them than the ones who come on strong and tell me what an idiot I've been and tell me what I need to do.

I'm at the bottom of the learning curve and I know it. I try to learn all I can and I ask a lot of questions. I'm not stupid, but I am most certainly ignorant (i.e. "have yet to learn") a LOT of things about cars at this level. If I see something written about something that interests me, I don't hesitate to ask questions about it. That's why I started this particular thread. I just wanted to learn more about using a wastegate on the cold side to aid spooling. That's all. I never said I was going to do it, or that it was some dark secret to spooling a turbo car that I was claiming to be the holy grail. I've never said that about anything I've posted questions about. I just enjoy learning and find it very interesting to see the different ways different people approach solving a particular problem.
__________________
Scott Russell
Special thanks to BB&T Racing, without whom this project would never have been possible. Thanks to Jim Kuntz for the dedication to building my engine as though it were his own. Thanks to Mark Micke of M&M Transmission. Also special thanks to my friend Dean Fisher. I could never have built this car without your friendship, motivation, and awesome fab work. And to Dave Zimmerman, cause without his help, I'd still be spinning my wheels!
Scotts87LX is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 2.74%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Yellow Bullet LLC