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limited shock travel question

4K views 32 replies 13 participants last post by  chesterboyz 
#1 ·
This is a topic that has been debated by myself and my co-workers for some time and I'd like some opinions from the suspension guru's here.

If the front end is tied down with .5"-1.0" of travel, what good does a custom valved shock really do? If the front end is tied down so much to where it doesn't even really move, then what is the benefit of a custom valved shock? One side says you could take that shock out with the front end tied all the way down and replace it with a metal rod, turn it into a go-kart and it would still do the same thing.

The other side says(me), that there is still control in the shock even with .5"-1.0" of travel and since the spring has been limited to such a small amount of travel it is being compressed the amount it's being limited and not allowed to extend so there is more spring rate there that has to be controlled by that shock as it goes through it's limited range of travel.

I personally don't believe that you can just bolt a piece of steel in there and think there is much more to it than that, but I don't build shocks or stock suspension chassis so I can't respond with an intelligent answer, just "that's bullshit" lol.

So what do you say?
 
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#2 ·
If you aren't using suspension travel, then having badass front shock doesn't do much, other than slow down that 1 inch of travel. But either way when it hits that 1 inch, the weight transfer is done. But not having ANY suspension travel at all, I just can't see that working.
 
#3 ·
I strongly disagree.
When travel is limited I have found MORE shock control helps to keep the car from getting upset as it" touches the limiter" so early in the weight transfer moment.
 
#5 ·
The question is, if a car is already fast with such little front end travel using say a single adjustable qa1 and .5" of travel, will a bad ass custom valved shock make it faster set up the same way.
 
#11 ·
THe improtant question to ask yourselves is why did you have to take so much travel away to begin with. In most cases it is a band-aid for lack of shock control. I am a big fan of limiters to control the dynamic transfer of weight. Different racing surfaces will certainly need different amounts of travel. The shock then is assigned the duty of being a timing device. With the proper valving it becomes a much more versatile tool for tuning your car's suspension.
 
#12 · (Edited)
This. ^^^^

The good shock should let a car be much more consistent on the leave and drivable on the big end. I see a lot of cars limiting front end rotation with the hard stop being less than a inch, they also are the ones that blow a tire off or on the bumper very few repeatable passes. If you can slow the shock down, and it goes into more rotation, it still limits only softer, but keeps dropping while in the air, so it does not upset the car as it comes down.

Shocks play a much bigger role than a lot of guys will let them.
 
#14 ·
Also, if the front is so strapped down and you do a wheelie it is going to break some stuff. If the shock has some time to stretch out it will help save the underneith of car. Santuffs are really good shocks for this. My da afcos need to be revalved again. I want the strongest extension valve possible this next time they get sent back.

I have always heard from the old timers that a travel limiter is for someone that has a shitty front shock. I wish I could unstrap my car but the afcos just dont allow it.
 
#16 ·
Martin, Its hard to guarantee exact numbers, a race car is a very complex set of dynamics. Im quite confident that there is something being left on the table tin this case. I will guarantee your guy's money back if I cant pick that thing up a few numbers. Same thing i tell all my customers. We have no problem spending thousands on horsepower upgrades, yet get all nutted up over $800-$1500 in quality shocks to help use said hp. Shocks, mind you, that can last for years if properly maintained.
 
#17 ·
Martin, Its hard to guarantee exact numbers, a race car is a very complex set of dynamics. Im quite confident that there is something being left on the table tin this case. I will guarantee your guy's money back if I cant pick that thing up a few numbers. Same thing i tell all my customers. We have no problem spending thousands on horsepower upgrades, yet get all nutted up over $800-$1500 in quality shocks to help use said hp. Shocks, mind you, that can last for years if properly maintained.
Wow, that is one helluva an offer Mark! I will let him know, you will be getting my front shocks in soon!

I believe in you! Hell, I don't have to tell you that because if Steve Jackson and Fiscus believe in you, who the hell am I LOL!
 
#18 ·
The car in question is my car. It has had the same shocks all the way around for nearly 10 years. It has never had an issue hooking.... It has drug the bumper a few times including with a six speed. The shocks are set as firm as they will go.

Unlike Martin said, the car had a 3.89 gear. During the summer months it was very consistent with 60ft times ranging from 1.22 to 1.23 with an occasional 1.24. As the season wore on and the air got cool it started wanting to hit the bumper. We tightened the limiter one setting and it would hook about 50% of the time.

We then changed the 3.89 to a 3.60 gear and it worked awesome with the limiter back in its old setting. The car had the best 60ft time ever. It had the best mph ever. The 3.60 gear didn't hurt the car anywhere, and it was totally controllable. I've never played with weight...just added what was necessary. I have scales, but my own car has never even been on them lol.

I have had only one converter in the car. It is on the tight side....very tight. I think there is et to be had with the converter still yet....and then maybe shocks would benefit as well. We sat out the season last year and didn't get many passes with the 3.60 gear....so until I get some long term results from the current combo, I won't be changing shocks.

Maybe I'm giving up a hundredth, and maybe one day I'll give some good shocks a try. But until I feel the need for better shocks, I'll keep rocking my $30 comp engineering shocks and wore out Gen F QA1's. As of right now, I wouldn't change the shocks if they were free. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.... If we do begin to have a consistency issue with the new found hp this year maybe I'll give them a shot. I do understand the down side of having the car chained down if the car comes down hard from a wheelie, but from the little testing we have with the 3.60 gear the car never even attempted to wheelie more than 6-12 inches maybe...and the 3.60 is about right for a 1/4 mile pass if I decide to run some of the LSx events, so I don't plan to go lower with the gear again.

As for the digiset, I don't use it because I don't need to...my suspension must be doing something right. Using a digiset is a sure fire way to go slower. :)

Martin should worry more about getting his own car together and less about what might pick my car up a hundredth or two haha! My car will still be his cars daddy....comp engineering shocks and all.;)
 
#21 ·
The car in question is my car. It has had the same shocks all the way around for nearly 10 years. It has never had an issue hooking.... It has drug the bumper a few times including with a six speed. The shocks are set as firm as they will go.

Unlike Martin said, the car had a 3.89 gear. During the summer months it was very consistent with 60ft times ranging from 1.22 to 1.23 with an occasional 1.24. As the season wore on and the air got cool it started wanting to hit the bumper. We tightened the limiter one setting and it would hook about 50% of the time.

We then changed the 3.89 to a 3.60 gear and it worked awesome with the limiter back in its old setting. The car had the best 60ft time ever. It had the best mph ever. The 3.60 gear didn't hurt the car anywhere, and it was totally controllable. I've never played with weight...just added what was necessary. I have scales, but my own car has never even been on them lol.

I have had only one converter in the car. It is on the tight side....very tight. I think there is et to be had with the converter still yet....and then maybe shocks would benefit as well. We sat out the season last year and didn't get many passes with the 3.60 gear....so until I get some long term results from the current combo, I won't be changing shocks.

Maybe I'm giving up a hundredth, and maybe one day I'll give some good shocks a try. But until I feel the need for better shocks, I'll keep rocking my $30 comp engineering shocks and wore out Gen F QA1's. As of right now, I wouldn't change the shocks if they were free. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.... If we do begin to have a consistency issue with the new found hp this year maybe I'll give them a shot. I do understand the down side of having the car chained down if the car comes down hard from a wheelie, but from the little testing we have with the 3.60 gear the car never even attempted to wheelie more than 6-12 inches maybe...and the 3.60 is about right for a 1/4 mile pass if I decide to run some of the LSx events, so I don't plan to go lower with the gear again.

As for the digiset, I don't use it because I don't need to...my suspension must be doing something right. Using a digiset is a sure fire way to go slower. :)

Martin should worry more about getting his own car together and less about what might pick my car up a hundredth or two haha! My car will still be his cars daddy....comp engineering shocks and all.;)
What? Lol! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
#19 ·
My argument with martin was a simple one. If you have no travel, then different shocks won't make a difference. If a car is chained down to the point of zero travel, then the shock isn't even moving in terms of rebound...

No, my car isn't chained down to the point of no travel...it has about 1" of travel as the limiters are set (measured at the tire, the shock would have less travel). The setting where it would hook 50% of the time with the 3.89 gear was zero travel.

Here is what the car looks like when it leaves:

 
#20 ·
And FWIW, I'm running stupid amounts of air pressure and still hooking the 3.60. :) That probably has more to do with our big mph (for the class) than anything. We have actually hooked 22 lbs cold on Hoosiers....I haven't even tried the new MT's.
 
#22 ·
Here is what the car looks like when it leaves:




Yes, you killing the tire and are wasting a huge amount of time and energy making the rear end separate as much as you are to hook. You are leaving time on the table. You are running a lot of tire pressure because you have so much separation in it.

Shocks are the best money spent on a car as far as I am concerned, and over looked the most.

I wonder why we don't see more NHRA Pro Stocks running Comp 3 ways when your dealing with more weight, less tire and similar power levels? The guys that pay attn. to the shocks are the guys winning races, ET wins races, MPH wins squat.
 
#25 ·
Yeah you need some shocks for sure.. Double adjustable shocks at that

What torque arm is in the car? What setting is it at? Can you lower the arm one hole?

And on the front shock/travel thing.. When you launch with 0" travel.. no the shocks settings or quality really dont matter.. But when you get out of the throttle, or pedal it, or come down from a wheelie.. It does.. Obviously to dampen the rate so you dont just slam the oilpan,make landing a little softer, ect ect.. but where it really matters is right after that when you have compressed it past normal ride height and with a shock loose as a goose, its going to bounce like crazy.. be hard to control, ect ect.. Also if she ever gets out of control down track and youre trying to drive it.. the loose shocks is a bad bad idea.. Also turning off track onto return, ect ect..

Youre hitting the tire too hard for damn sure.. and if she is only hooking half the time.. you got problems man.. Widow Maker actually has some decent knowledge man.. No i wouldnt say he knows it all, none of us do.. but he has read/participated in enough YB suspension threads and Ive seen his answers to tell you that he aint as out in left field as you think..
 
#26 ·
Thanks Ryan. Jonathan knows a lot more than I do about building motors and transmissions, setting up cars to go fast etc.. I like to think of myself as knowledgeable because of people like him on my side.

These are one of those things we just don't see eye to eye on LMAO! Maybe you guys can get further than I did. lol
 
#27 · (Edited)
Ok sorry to change the subject but want to talk about the seperation and hitting the tire to hard.What to do in this situation?I've been a 1.15 to 1.16 with the travel out of my frontend(with chains)To take seperation out do you lower the car or move the lca up toward the back of the rear?Mine is set in the the bottom hole and headed on a slight down hill towards the back of the rear,or do it tighten the shocks so it dont seperate?And it seemed like it only seperated when i went up on rear gear!
 
#33 ·
That what i was thinking,it does have a 36inch arm on it.Mine lca are angled down hill slightly!So level might be the sweet spot!The picture in my avatar is the highest it ever wheelie.
 
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