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Old 08-10-2012, 12:47 PM   #46
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Default Re: 408 What Heads To Run Cathedral Port or Square Port and Power #'s?

Its got nothing to do with my car
He asked what heads to run and why so i gave him my honest opinion
Oh and GM never spent time designing the ls3 on purpose per say
It was a failed attempt at what eventually became the ls7 head so get your facts straight
Its funny how those who run ls3 heads get so bent when anyone questions them
The way i see it is if you have to have certain compromises to a combo to make it work(for ex- ls3 specific cam/intake choices) then maybe you need to look at why that is ?
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Old 08-10-2012, 01:26 PM   #47
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Default Re: 408 What Heads To Run Cathedral Port or Square Port and Power #'s?

Oh and comparing an aftermarket Ls3 head like a Mast with moved valve angles and ls7 architecture to a stock ls3 head is not a realistic comparison
Truth be told i almost made the switch to a ls3 head myself,but unless i spent alot of money going to ls7 based ls3 aftermarket type casting i was told by numerous companies it wouldnt make a big enough difference in my case to warrant the move
Maybe if i was running a stock 243 casting deal it would be better,but with what i have i felt there are other areas for improvemant where money was better spent
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Old 08-10-2012, 01:57 PM   #48
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Default Re: 408 What Heads To Run Cathedral Port or Square Port and Power #'s?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossbreed383 View Post
Its got nothing to do with my car
He asked what heads to run and why so i gave him my honest opinion
Oh and GM never spent time designing the ls3 on purpose per say
It was a failed attempt at what eventually became the ls7 head so get your facts straight
Its funny how those who run ls3 heads get so bent when anyone questions them
The way i see it is if you have to have certain compromises to a combo to make it work(for ex- ls3 specific cam/intake choices) then maybe you need to look at why that is ?
Oh, gettin' nasty now. I guess I'm just a all bent no nothing LS guy and you have it all figured out on one LS engine... WOW! Nothing else for me to say. But I'll hope you will forgive me if I go my own way and continue to use the square port heads. Because I'm in the business of selling HP and that's what the customer demands.

PS. If you ever come out this way or go to the LSX fest let me know. I'm bring something running square port heads and we'll line um up.
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Old 08-10-2012, 02:15 PM   #49
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Default Re: 408 What Heads To Run Cathedral Port or Square Port and Power #'s?

Where's the part where anyone got nasty lol
In fact i dont ever remember commenting on your car at all
Yet you seem to have a problem with me/mine because i didnt agree
Its all good
Like i said before,more than one way to get to one's goals
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Old 08-10-2012, 02:59 PM   #50
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Default Re: 408 What Heads To Run Cathedral Port or Square Port and Power #'s?

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Originally Posted by Crossbreed383 View Post
Where's the part where anyone got nasty lol
In fact i dont ever remember commenting on your car at all
Yet you seem to have a problem with me/mine because i didnt agree
Its all good
Like i said before,more than one way to get to one's goals
I might have taken the "get your facts straight" part wrong so I cry your pardon if I did. And I probably was not clear on that so let me put it a more simple way. GM put the square port heads on the LS3, LS7 and supercharged LS9 for a reason... They make more power... period. If a cathedral port head made more power they would have put on on there. And that's the same reason I use them. They make more power. And I'm not all bent about it either. I could give a crap if I ever sell a set of heads. I do this stuff because I want to, not because I have to. I'm lucky to be in the position that I don't have to prostrate myself to any vender. I only promote products that work, not who gives me the better deal. I also like and use ALL PRO heads to but they do not have a small bore square port head. Maybe one day they will and I'll spread the word, good or bad.

PS: I'm building another square port headed engine for another Mustang right now. This car is for me so I can do anything I want with it. And if ANYBODY wants to send me a set of cathedral ports heads to try on it, send them on... I'll do it for free and test them for free against the square port heads. I'll even use what ever cam you want. It's a pump gas engine so it should be a simple test.
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Old 08-10-2012, 05:07 PM   #51
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Default Re: 408 What Heads To Run Cathedral Port or Square Port and Power #'s?

one thing to keep in mind, no matter what head you pick...
is you are looking at flow #'s that are not a fair straight comparison.. you have different size valves on each head...
the TFS is a 2.08 intake and the MAST is a 2.165 on the intake
Both have a 1.6 on the exhaust...

so intake is going to flow more on the MAST head just by size of opening alone...

the exhaust ports being the same valve show that the TFS flows better on the exhaust.
Intake doesnt mean jack shit if the exhaust doesnt flow..
on an NA motor its more about port velocity
on a FI motor its all about total Flow...
NA if you can only breathe 1500 cfm thru the intake, then both those heads will be fine...
but FI, lets say you are at 2500cfm.. then you are limited by the heads flowing less than 2500 total cfm
the MAST puts you around 2000 CFM exhaust
the TFS puts you around 2200cfm exhaust
I'm not saying one is more important than the other...
you can still make power with compression, but your gains will diminish as you cant flow more air out the exhaust(yes, I know pressures will make it flow more..but its not linear)



but if you are going to look at heads.. you need to compare apples to apples

you also need to look at the Cam, the pistons , and the head chamber...

the example of 2 basically identical engines with only the bore being different making the same power, only tells me that you were outflowing the head.
apples to apples.. a change in more cubic inches, should have resulted in more power everywhere(all rpm's)

give me an apples to apples where only the heads are swapped, and the problem becomes you need a a different cam for a cathedral port than you do for a rectangle port, so its still not apples to apples..it more like apples to pears..



with a supercharger, you can utilize the bigger intake flow of the MAST head until the point where you start being limited by the exhaust
you'll know when you hit that point because power will suddenly hit a wall and no longer be making leaps and bounds with more psi
when you reach that 2000/2200 cfm point, the higher you go up in PSI, the less the power gain will be per PSI
that 200 cfm difference probably isnt enough to make the you even care about the exhaust port difference with Forced induction.
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Last edited by S2H; 08-10-2012 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 08-10-2012, 05:23 PM   #52
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Default Re: 408 What Heads To Run Cathedral Port or Square Port and Power #'s?

also, the "apples to apples" head swap was done by Hot rod magazine...
straight off the shelf.. untouched....unwrap it and throw it on the engine...
all tests done on a lsx 408



Mast Black Label LS3 (Small Bore)

Intake valve size: 2.165
Exhaust valve size: 1.60
Intake port volume: 257 cc
Exhaust port volume: 86 cc
Chamber volume: 64 cc
Peak power: 620.1 hp at 6,600 rpm
Peak torque: 563.3 lb-ft at 5,300 rpm
Average horsepower (3,000-6,500): 477.4 hp
Average torque (3,000-6,500): 523.4 lb-ft
Torque at 4,000 rpm: 514.3 lb-ft



Trick Flow 235

Intake valve size: 2.08
Exhaust valve size: 1.60
Intake port volume: 234 cc
Exhaust port volume: 80 cc
Chamber volume: 64 cc
Peak power: 619.1 hp at 6,400 rpm
Peak torque: 558.2 lb-ft at 5,400 rpm
Average horsepower (3,000-6,500): 478.4 hp
Average torque (3,000-6,500): 524.6 lb-ft
Torque at 4,000 rpm: 517.7 lb-ft

and just for giggles because I'm a fan of the PRC heads
Texas Speed 237

Intake valve size: 2.10
Exhaust valve size: 1.60
Intake port volume: 238 cc
Exhaust port volume: 85 cc
Chamber volume: 64 cc
Peak power: 621.3 hp at 6,700 rpm
Peak torque: 558.4 lb-ft at 5,300 rpm
Average horsepower (3,000-6,500): 477.5 hp
Average torque (3,000-6,500): 523.3 lb-ft
Torque at 4,000 rpm: 514.5 lb-ft



as you see.. that rectangle port did not outperform the cathedral port heads on an NA motor
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Last edited by S2H; 08-10-2012 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 08-10-2012, 05:59 PM   #53
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Default Re: 408 What Heads To Run Cathedral Port or Square Port and Power #'s?

They did not cam that engine properly, cam it to spin some rpm and it will shine
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Old 08-10-2012, 06:05 PM   #54
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Default Re: 408 What Heads To Run Cathedral Port or Square Port and Power #'s?

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They did not cam that engine properly, cam it to spin some rpm and it will shine

239/247

they were shooting for an all around cam that would make good power for a streetable vehicle...

yes a bigger cam might go to a little higher rpm...but it has more to do with the style of intake being used on that test....
doesnt really make that much difference if they dont put a different style intake on it
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Old 08-10-2012, 08:02 PM   #55
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Default Re: 408 What Heads To Run Cathedral Port or Square Port and Power #'s?

Quote:
Originally Posted by S2H View Post
also, the "apples to apples" head swap was done by Hot rod magazine...
straight off the shelf.. untouched....unwrap it and throw it on the engine...
all tests done on a lsx 408



Mast Black Label LS3 (Small Bore)

Intake valve size: 2.165
Exhaust valve size: 1.60
Intake port volume: 257 cc
Exhaust port volume: 86 cc
Chamber volume: 64 cc
Peak power: 620.1 hp at 6,600 rpm
Peak torque: 563.3 lb-ft at 5,300 rpm
Average horsepower (3,000-6,500): 477.4 hp
Average torque (3,000-6,500): 523.4 lb-ft
Torque at 4,000 rpm: 514.3 lb-ft



Trick Flow 235

Intake valve size: 2.08
Exhaust valve size: 1.60
Intake port volume: 234 cc
Exhaust port volume: 80 cc
Chamber volume: 64 cc
Peak power: 619.1 hp at 6,400 rpm
Peak torque: 558.2 lb-ft at 5,400 rpm
Average horsepower (3,000-6,500): 478.4 hp
Average torque (3,000-6,500): 524.6 lb-ft
Torque at 4,000 rpm: 517.7 lb-ft

and just for giggles because I'm a fan of the PRC heads
Texas Speed 237

Intake valve size: 2.10
Exhaust valve size: 1.60
Intake port volume: 238 cc
Exhaust port volume: 85 cc
Chamber volume: 64 cc
Peak power: 621.3 hp at 6,700 rpm
Peak torque: 558.4 lb-ft at 5,300 rpm
Average horsepower (3,000-6,500): 477.5 hp
Average torque (3,000-6,500): 523.3 lb-ft
Torque at 4,000 rpm: 514.5 lb-ft



as you see.. that rectangle port did not outperform the cathedral port heads on an NA motor


That's great. I see that engine making the same power. And I did that test YEARS ago with the TFS 235, VS. ETP 245's VS. Elederbrock PRO Port 225's, VS. CNC ported GM 243' VS. ETP 4.0" LS7 heads on a 402 engine and got the opposite results. (Apples to Apples) The ETP 4.0" heads with a stock LS7 intake beat them all! I used a F.A.S.T intake and a stock LS2 intake for the cathedral heads. My 92mm T/B was used for all engines.

I spent tens of thousands of dollars in Dyno time and cam shafts swaps on new engines during that year. And if I had a nickel for every time the cathedral port junkies would say "if you just change the cam the cathedral port engine will make more power." Ugh! Putting different profile cams in the cathedral engines helped (I did that after one of the head companies said I was not being fair) but I could always beat the cathedral heads by doing the same thing to the square port heads! So after that, I started using square port heads and never regretted it, or looked back.

Bottom line. (IN MY OPINION BASED OFF RESULTS I FOUND) the small bore square port heads performed better than any cathedral head I have tried, cam swaps and all. And the larger bore square port heads on large bore engines... it's not even close. But with that said, I don't care what anyone uses. If "they" want to use a particular set of heads, that cool! And I understand a lot of the time it comes down to cost. A nasty set of Mast or ALL PRO heads are not cheap... I get it. BTW, you talked about the PRC heads from Texas Speed. I just built a motor for a guy and used a set of those heads. It ran great! (Thanks Matt!) And for the money, it is a fantastic head!!! So I'm not a cathedral port hatter. But if you want the most power and you can swing the money for the heads, I'm gonna put a set of square port MAST or ALL PRO heads on that sucker because I know what's it's going to do when the rubber meets the road... My 2 cents and out.
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Old 08-10-2012, 08:05 PM   #56
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Default Re: 408 What Heads To Run Cathedral Port or Square Port and Power #'s?

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That's great. I see that engine making the same power. And I did that test YEARS ago with the TFS 235, VS. ETP 245's VS. Elederbrock PRO Port 225's, VS. CNC ported GM 243' VS. ETP 4.0" LS7 heads on a 402 engine and got the opposite results. (Apples to Apples) The ETP 4.0" heads with a stock LS7 intake beat them all! I used a F.A.S.T intake and a stock LS2 intake for the cathedral heads. My 92mm T/B was used for all engines.

I spent tens of thousands of dollars in Dyno time and cam shafts swaps on new engines during that year. And if I had a nickel for every time the cathedral port junkies would say "if you just change the cam the cathedral port engine will make more power." Ugh! Putting different profile cams in the cathedral engines helped (I did that after one of the head companies said I was not being fair) but I could always beat the cathedral heads by doing the same thing to the square port heads! So after that, I started using square port heads and never regretted it, or looked back.

Bottom line. (IN MY OPINION BASED OFF RESULTS I FOUND) the small bore square port heads performed better than any cathedral head I have tried, cam swaps and all. And the larger bore square port heads on large bore engines... it's not even close. But with that said, I don't care what anyone uses. If "they" want to use a particular set of heads, that cool! And I understand a lot of the time it comes down to cost. A nasty set of Mast or ALL PRO heads are not cheap... I get it. BTW, you talked about the PRC heads from Texas Speed. I just built a motor for a guy and used a set of those heads. It ran great! (Thanks Matt!) And for the money, it is a fantastic head!!! So I'm not a cathedral port hatter. But if you want the most power and you can swing the money for the heads, I'm gonna put a set of square port MAST or ALL PRO heads on that sucker because I know what's it's going to do when the rubber meets the road... My 2 cents and out.

Like I said... Bigger than 4.06 bore, go rectangle port heads all the way...the cathedrals stop basically at 245cc...
I think I've seen 285cc rectangle port LSx heads if I recall correctly...
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Old 08-10-2012, 08:12 PM   #57
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Default Re: 408 What Heads To Run Cathedral Port or Square Port and Power #'s?

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Like I said... Bigger than 4.06 bore, go rectangle port heads all the way...the cathedrals stop basically at 245cc...
I think I've seen 285cc rectangle port LSx heads if I recall correctly...
Not for me... 4.0" and up, all squaresAnd they make much larger than 285cc square port heads, now. 305's for sure. I have a set of MAST 285's on a 4.125" bore right now.

Here's a pic. Note. The heads and intake are just setting on there... Nothing bolted down.

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Old 08-10-2012, 09:16 PM   #58
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Default Re: 408 What Heads To Run Cathedral Port or Square Port and Power #'s?

Does MAST still make a medium bore LS7 head for 4.00" bore? I would love to throw a pair on my 11.8 cr 402 and see how they do compared to the AFR 225's installed right now.
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Old 08-10-2012, 10:34 PM   #59
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Default Re: 408 What Heads To Run Cathedral Port or Square Port and Power #'s?

How about the may cyl head test in gm-hi tech performance between Mast's own ls3 and cath port heads
Seemed rather fair and even to me ,considering they used heads from the same, company so its not like you can say they skewed the results to suit a certain supplier
Part of me would love to have the means to swap over to a rec port head and see if there is a large gain to be found
But with all the periphial things i'd need to change i'm gun shy to do it unless im rest assured to make significant gains
And then someone like Coleman Roddy comes along and runs 8.90s with crappy cath port heads and throws a wrench in all of it
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Old 08-10-2012, 11:32 PM   #60
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Default Re: 408 What Heads To Run Cathedral Port or Square Port and Power #'s?

Looks Like I started a little debate, Once again. I am going to go with a 11.1 or 11.5 to 1 Compression 408 and run a Vortech YSI at Max efficentcy and over spinning the power. I am looking for a all out drag car which will see little to any street time unless I want to go to a cruise. I live in Colorado at 5800feet and want to make as much power as possiable.

I am not going to lie, I love the way the Square Bore Heads flow on the intake side, I am kind of consered about the exhaust flow. I t is very low compared to the intake flow? I look at the catherdral port heads and the intake and exhaust is much closer, but it seems like everyone points to potential of the square ports are alot higher
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