SBF, turbo car powerglide/ converter problems. Any ideas? - Page 3 - Yellow Bullet Forums

Go Back   Yellow Bullet Forums > Technical Section > Transmission - Hutch's Transmission Service

Transmission - Hutch's Transmission Service

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-06-2012, 12:29 AM   #31
michaeld
Senior Member
Smoked another BBC
 
michaeld's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Moore Okla. USA
Posts: 1,901
Default Re: SBF, turbo car powerglide/ converter problems. Any ideas?

Like stated earlier, lot of line pressure results depends on witch input shaft and pump in in the trans..
michaeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 05-06-2012, 12:31 AM   #32
Packersfan
Senior Member
Smoked another BBC
 
Packersfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Iowa
Posts: 2,457
Default Re: SBF, turbo car powerglide/ converter problems. Any ideas?

I realize that... that's how I would do it as well and always do with the TH-400's. But what I'm getting at is even if you have a popoff valve set to 55 psi... what is the pressure upline from that? It still may be excessive. I'd rather watch the pressure and tune the charge to maintain it. IMO the passages are smallish between the exit path from the converter and the cooler line and in reality bleeding it there may not really be doing anything back upstream. It'd be nice to have a pressure transducer in the converter to see what's really going on.
Packersfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2012, 01:41 AM   #33
billycart
On the flow bench
Smoked Another SBC
 
billycart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,155
Default Re: SBF, turbo car powerglide/ converter problems. Any ideas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dustin11 View Post
This last restall was a pump and stator change. It obviously effected initial flash but rpm drop on the gear change was still the same. I was suspecting an issue with the cooler circuit causing backpressure in the converter but I think he looped the lines and nothing changed. It's as if the fluid isn't getting out of the converter down track making it tight.

Back when I swapped to a ringless shaft and cooler circuit pressure dropped, the converter got looser. That's the next step. I expect it to loosen the converter enough that he can try a converter I have for a combo similar to his.
Dusty,
Ring Travis,and ask him bout the sbf twin 88 we had over here, and how he fixed it with fluid change.
__________________
www.quillenmotorsports.com
MFI turbo systems Rule !
4.2@170
Ptc converters and transmissions

http://youtu.be/PXuSOlr5feo


http://youtu.be/6ZsoHj_l0-U
billycart is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2012, 01:56 AM   #34
michaeld
Senior Member
Smoked another BBC
 
michaeld's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Moore Okla. USA
Posts: 1,901
Default Re: SBF, turbo car powerglide/ converter problems. Any ideas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Packersfan View Post
I realize that... that's how I would do it as well and always do with the TH-400's. But what I'm getting at is even if you have a popoff valve set to 55 psi... what is the pressure upline from that? It still may be excessive. I'd rather watch the pressure and tune the charge to maintain it. IMO the passages are smallish between the exit path from the converter and the cooler line and in reality bleeding it there may not really be doing anything back upstream. It'd be nice to have a pressure transducer in the converter to see what's really going on.
I understand,, There are miniature transducer that can be installed inside a converter to measure actual charge pressure,they transmit data via radio frequency, but they way out of my price league.. You probably have read the below link,, it is intricate but very interesting and informative..
http://www.me.mtu.edu/~narain/IJRM1.pdf
michaeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2012, 11:29 AM   #35
Packersfan
Senior Member
Smoked another BBC
 
Packersfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Iowa
Posts: 2,457
Default Re: SBF, turbo car powerglide/ converter problems. Any ideas?

Yep, it'd be nice to have an affordable transducer setup. It would answer many questions!
Packersfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2012, 11:37 AM   #36
Dustin11
Senior Member
Smoked another BBC
 
Dustin11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Alabama
Posts: 3,794
Default Re: SBF, turbo car powerglide/ converter problems. Any ideas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Packersfan View Post
I realize that... that's how I would do it as well and always do with the TH-400's. But what I'm getting at is even if you have a popoff valve set to 55 psi... what is the pressure upline from that? It still may be excessive. I'd rather watch the pressure and tune the charge to maintain it. IMO the passages are smallish between the exit path from the converter and the cooler line and in reality bleeding it there may not really be doing anything back upstream. It'd be nice to have a pressure transducer in the converter to see what's really going on.
I agree. There's no way of knowing what the pressure is between the converter and cooler port which is why restricting the feed is the best way to control charge pressure.
__________________
87 Buick Regal 4.26@175 Single turbo on 275's

Special thanks to: PTC Converters, TRZ Motorsports, David Lemmond Racecars, Chris Terry Racing, VP Fuels, Baer Brakes, Precision Turbo, Performance Fuel Systems Billet Atomizer Injectors

Twisted 6 Racing
Distributor for PTC converters
Dustin11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2012, 11:41 AM   #37
Dustin11
Senior Member
Smoked another BBC
 
Dustin11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Alabama
Posts: 3,794
Default Re: SBF, turbo car powerglide/ converter problems. Any ideas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by billycart View Post
Dusty,
Ring Travis,and ask him bout the sbf twin 88 we had over here, and how he fixed it with fluid change.
He's changed fluids. We've had the trans and converter apart looking for pressure issues. Ran the trans on a dyno with a test converter and with his converter. It's as if his fluid pressure is keeping the converter tight down track. Fluid is backing up somewhere but it doesn't seem to be in the converter. Line pressure, pump is fine. We're going to swap input shafts next. I know this shaft will drop charge pressure 40-50psi so we'll see how it effects the converter.
__________________
87 Buick Regal 4.26@175 Single turbo on 275's

Special thanks to: PTC Converters, TRZ Motorsports, David Lemmond Racecars, Chris Terry Racing, VP Fuels, Baer Brakes, Precision Turbo, Performance Fuel Systems Billet Atomizer Injectors

Twisted 6 Racing
Distributor for PTC converters
Dustin11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2012, 11:59 AM   #38
Dustin11
Senior Member
Smoked another BBC
 
Dustin11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Alabama
Posts: 3,794
Default Re: SBF, turbo car powerglide/ converter problems. Any ideas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeld View Post
So as the converter flashes it pushes the fluid out the cooler circuit causing the higher reading.. I never understood why the pressure changes so dramatically during the run,, I was beginning to think the trans pump was cavitation under acceleration do to the fluid uncovering the filter during certain points of a pass??... Also makes sense why my flat fin angel 9 inch converter operates at less pressure than the tight eight inch...
I'm not even close to a trans expert. Never even attempted to build one. I have analyzed alot of data from being in the converter business. I'm the kind of guy that wants to see exactly how something works so when something if off somewhere I want to know why. I've seen some things on the dyno and in car data that lead me to believe that when a converter is loaded it wants to blow all the fluid out of it. This is why your seeing slightly higher pressures in the charge circuit after the intial hit and then again at the gear change.

Looking at stator designs. A stator that flows more fluid will be tighter. That fluid has to go somewhere. So in knowing that. A looser converter will not flow as much fluid out of the converter and through the cooler circuit so yes, you would see a lower charge pressure with a looser converter.

This goes back to how strange Cory's issue is with his trans. He has great charge pressure that tells us he is getting good flow out of the converter. So if the converter will not loosen up at the gear change it has to be from the fluid packing up inside the converter. We have addressed everything that would cause this with the trans the way it was brought to us. Now I know I can put a ringless shaft in it that will allow more fluid flow out of the converter. This will tell us if the fluid is backing up between the trans and converter causing it to be tighter than it should.
__________________
87 Buick Regal 4.26@175 Single turbo on 275's

Special thanks to: PTC Converters, TRZ Motorsports, David Lemmond Racecars, Chris Terry Racing, VP Fuels, Baer Brakes, Precision Turbo, Performance Fuel Systems Billet Atomizer Injectors

Twisted 6 Racing
Distributor for PTC converters
Dustin11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2012, 12:38 PM   #39
michaeld
Senior Member
Smoked another BBC
 
michaeld's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Moore Okla. USA
Posts: 1,901
Default Re: SBF, turbo car powerglide/ converter problems. Any ideas?

I'm not much of a trans guy either,{more of a suspension guy} but I do spend a lot of time test ideas,reviewing the results, listing and learning.. In the past I worked with clutch cars and learned how critical clutch set-up is to the performance and drivability {call it "winablity"} of the car .. A working knowledge of the torque converter and having the ability to tune the converter is of vital important.. Manipulating charge pressure is one more tool a tuner has at his disposal..
I am very interested in the results you find on Cory's car...
michaeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2012, 10:05 PM   #40
Hutch
Moderator
Smoked Another SBC
 
Hutch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: London Ontario Canada
Posts: 14,498
Default Re: SBF, turbo car powerglide/ converter problems. Any ideas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dustin11 View Post
Now I know I can put a ringless shaft in it that will allow more fluid flow out of the converter.
How can that be? There is no difference on the way out unless the shaft to tube clearance is offering restriction or there is a stator tube bushing and path that is offering restriction.

If you reference is a ring to ringless (with cooler) I don't see the difference in out flow.


Hutch
__________________
www.Hutchtrans.com
519-453-4318
Hutch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2012, 10:55 AM   #41
michaeld
Senior Member
Smoked another BBC
 
michaeld's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Moore Okla. USA
Posts: 1,901
Default Re: SBF, turbo car powerglide/ converter problems. Any ideas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Packersfan View Post
Yep, it'd be nice to have an affordable transducer setup. It would answer many questions!
I need to remember the pressure my RP transducer is reading is actually cooler line pressure,, not necessarily actual converter charge pressure... What i have learned from this thread is charge pressure is a product of fluid exhaust efficiency and converter design and inlet pressure-volume. Restricting the converter inlet can effect converter pressure only because the volume of fluid pumped into the converter is less..
Wonder if I can fit a pressure transducer to the converter inlet conduits somewhere down stream of the restrict and-or, or fit a pressure regulator valve that can control converter inlet pressure independent of line pressure..
michaeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2012, 11:29 AM   #42
Packersfan
Senior Member
Smoked another BBC
 
Packersfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Iowa
Posts: 2,457
Default Re: SBF, turbo car powerglide/ converter problems. Any ideas?

I'm sure you can. Years ago I built an external charge system with solenoids and an rpm switch to gain around 300 rpm of stall with my little small block. When the car left and the rpm switch closed it flooded the converter to tighten it up. But, I'd like to know what the actual pressure in the converter really is at. I always monitored cooler circuit pressure and then dealt with the charge restriction to control that. Someone needs to make an affordable and smallish pressure transducer system!
Packersfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2012, 12:12 AM   #43
Dustin11
Senior Member
Smoked another BBC
 
Dustin11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Alabama
Posts: 3,794
Default Re: SBF, turbo car powerglide/ converter problems. Any ideas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hutch View Post
How can that be? There is no difference on the way out unless the shaft to tube clearance is offering restriction or there is a stator tube bushing and path that is offering restriction.

If you reference is a ring to ringless (with cooler) I don't see the difference in out flow.


Hutch
It's the clearance between the shaft and tube that changes with some ringless shafts. I have dropped cooler line pressure from 80 psi to 20 just by swapping from a ring shaft to a ringless vasco. Putting a bushing in the pump was enough of a restriction to raise the cooler line pressure from 20 to 40. In the end dropping the cooler line pressure from 80-40 loosened the converter.
__________________
87 Buick Regal 4.26@175 Single turbo on 275's

Special thanks to: PTC Converters, TRZ Motorsports, David Lemmond Racecars, Chris Terry Racing, VP Fuels, Baer Brakes, Precision Turbo, Performance Fuel Systems Billet Atomizer Injectors

Twisted 6 Racing
Distributor for PTC converters
Dustin11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2012, 01:05 AM   #44
WardRacing408
......
Smoked another BBC
 
WardRacing408's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Regina, SK, Canada
Posts: 1,481
Default Re: SBF, turbo car powerglide/ converter problems. Any ideas?

Thanks for the response to my question. Some good info in this thread.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
ONLY ONE SURE WAY TO FIND OUT. TALK IS CHEAP, REALIZING THE TRUTH WILL BE EXPENSIVE.
WardRacing408 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 05-08-2012, 01:22 AM   #45
Hutch
Moderator
Smoked Another SBC
 
Hutch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: London Ontario Canada
Posts: 14,498
Default Re: SBF, turbo car powerglide/ converter problems. Any ideas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dustin11 View Post
It's the clearance between the shaft and tube that changes with some ringless shafts. I have dropped cooler line pressure from 80 psi to 20 just by swapping from a ring shaft to a ringless vasco. Putting a bushing in the pump was enough of a restriction to raise the cooler line pressure from 20 to 40. In the end dropping the cooler line pressure from 80-40 loosened the converter.
What kind or "ringless" shaft are you comparing to a ring shaft? When I hear ring shaft I assume a conventional shaft (2 rings). When I hear ringless I assume its a 2 bushing sealed shaft using the bushings as seals instead of rings in the same location. Both examples would use NO stator tube bushing just like stock.

I don't think your reference to ringless is the same as mine.


Hutch
__________________
www.Hutchtrans.com
519-453-4318
Hutch is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 2.53%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Yellow Bullet LLC