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Old 09-12-2013, 11:43 AM   #1966
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Default Re: Jeff Lutz race cars = Shitty fabrication

I met Jeff briefly last year 2012 during Drag Week. He was friendly and loaned me a die grinder briefly for which I am thankful. Other then saying hi to him at a few NMCA events, I haven't really had any further contact with him.

Until this thread, I had respect for him. I'm not in a position to condemn him and certainly am not in a position to support him. Until now I've been just a "fly on the wall" and haven't posted an opinion - I hoped he would respond to this thread in a straight forward manner. I really wanted to hear his side of the story and if there were mistakes made, a deal worked out to correct them.

If Jeff doesn't respond, we will never know his side of the story and right or wrong, his reputation will suffer. Everyone makes mistakes and when we do, we should first admit it to ourselves then need to do our best to correct the situation.

The way I see it right now, this is heading for a lose-lose ending. Perhaps the OP should try one more time to contact Jeff and try to work out a compromise, even if he doesn't feel he's going to recover his loss 100%. And Jeff should seriously work with him on this compromise. Or perhaps Jeff should initiate contact to show he is willing to work towards a compromise. This way the situation could be resolved within a reasonable amount of time, perhaps a few weeks.

I'm not saying kiss and makeup, I'm just saying that it appears to me that both parties would be better off trying to negotiate a settlement and move on with their lives.

I hope both parties read this, take a big breath, step back and reconsider what is best for both.
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Old 09-12-2013, 11:51 AM   #1967
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Default Re: Jeff Lutz race cars = Shitty fabrication

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Originally Posted by Topfun99 View Post
I met Jeff briefly last year 2012 during Drag Week. He was friendly and loaned me a die grinder briefly for which I am thankful. Other then saying hi to him at a few NMCA events, I haven't really had any further contact with him.

Until this thread, I had respect for him. I'm not in a position to condemn him and certainly am not in a position to support him. Until now I've been just a "fly on the wall" and haven't posted an opinion - I hoped he would respond to this thread in a straight forward manner. I really wanted to hear his side of the story and if there were mistakes made, a deal worked out to correct them.

If Jeff doesn't respond, we will never know his side of the story and right or wrong, his reputation will suffer. Everyone makes mistakes and when we do, we should first admit it to ourselves then need to do our best to correct the situation.

The way I see it right now, this is heading for a lose-lose ending. Perhaps the OP should try one more time to contact Jeff and try to work out a compromise, even if he doesn't feel he's going to recover his loss 100%. And Jeff should seriously work with him on this compromise. Or perhaps Jeff should initiate contact to show he is willing to work towards a compromise. This way the situation could be resolved within a reasonable amount of time, perhaps a few weeks.

I'm not saying kiss and makeup, I'm just saying that it appears to me that both parties would be better off trying to negotiate a settlement and move on with their lives.

I hope both parties read this, take a big breath, step back and reconsider what is best for both.
What response would possibly be acceptable from Jeff? The man paid him for a job and received a pile of dog shit in return. Jeff's silence and lack of brains to resolve this issue speaks volumes about his character. Remember this isn't the first time there are at least 15 to other people listed throughout this thread who have been royally fucked by Jeff Lutz and they didn't speak up about it because of his name in the racing world. Well John and Bill obviously were willing to expose Jeff to the world at any cost. Mission accomplished.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:01 PM   #1968
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Default Re: Jeff Lutz race cars = Shitty fabrication

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Originally Posted by twinturbonova View Post
What response would possibly be acceptable from Jeff? The man paid him for a job and received a pile of dog shit in return. Jeff's silence and lack of brains to resolve this issue speaks volumes about his character. Remember this isn't the first time there are at least 15 to other people listed throughout this thread who have been royally fucked by Jeff Lutz and they didn't speak up about it because of his name in the racing world. Well John and Bill obviously were willing to expose Jeff to the world at any cost. Mission accomplished.
Honestly, I think a compromise would simply be in the best interest for the OP. I don't think anyone is going to come out of this situation happy and I don't think Jeff working out a compromise will fix his reputation though it will be a step in the right direction.

At some point in life everyone has to move forward. I'm just suggesting both parties take a step in the right direction. Pretty sure it's not heading in the right direction right now.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:07 PM   #1969
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Default Re: Jeff Lutz race cars = Shitty fabrication

Hot Rod Magazine fluffed him up ?
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:12 PM   #1970
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Default Re: Jeff Lutz race cars = Shitty fabrication

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Originally Posted by Topfun99 View Post
Honestly, I think a compromise would simply be in the best interest for the OP. I don't think anyone is going to come out of this situation happy and I don't think Jeff working out a compromise will fix his reputation though it will be a step in the right direction.

At some point in life everyone has to move forward. I'm just suggesting both parties take a step in the right direction. Pretty sure it's not heading in the right direction right now.

I think the OP offering to have Jeff give him back his money and take the car he "engineered" to try to recoup some of his expenses for the shoddy work was more than a compromise. Apparently Jeff has gotten away with this crap for so long he thinks he's above it.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:14 PM   #1971
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Default Re: Jeff Lutz race cars = Shitty fabrication

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I think the OP offering to have Jeff give him back his money and take the car he "engineered" to try to recoup some of his expenses for the shoddy work was more than a compromise. Apparently Jeff has gotten away with this crap for so long he thinks he's above it.
Spot on.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:19 PM   #1972
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Default Re: Jeff Lutz race cars = Shitty fabrication

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Everyone makes mistakes and when we do, we should first admit it to ourselves then need to do our best to correct the situation.

Your post is well thought out and worded, and props to you for that, especially in TOBT.

The problem I see with your solution, though, is simply this:

If it was a case where, say, the top of the cage bars weren't welded because the fabricator simply forgot to complete them in the midst of all the other job details, or the chassis has a tube in a spot where the inspector feels it should be moved elsewhere per the book- those are correctable mistakes, and quite possibly "honest" ones...i.e., there was no bad intent. It could be argued that the fabricator should catch these sort of things during a final inspection. and he should....but again, at least there was no intent to cheat the customer.

However, this doesn't seem to be the case. There are incomplete welds; poor tube fitting; just plain sloppy welding; no chassis jig; a poorly located front suspension; and the list goes on.

In other words, you have at the minimum level, incompetence, and at the maximum level, negligence and an intent to cheat the customer.

At this stage (especially after the size of this thread and its viewers) it is very unlikely that the chassis fabricator is simply going to say, "You're right....I messed up all these things, I (possibly) tried to hide them with caulk, I fabbed this up on a concrete floor, and I got this thing NHRA-certed in spite of the fact it's not done, and then I took advantage of the fact that you (the buyer) aren't a chassis expert to get you to take it! Good joke, right? Well, hey, ya got me! Now, lemme take care of it the right way...I promise!"

His ego is simply not going to allow this. Even if it did....no one in their right mind would allow him to touch the car again. He's not going to admit that there were major problems with his work; and even after all that was fixed, I personally still come back to the fact that a 6.0 car was not done on a chassis jig. That would deter me from ever getting behind the wheel.

At this point the most likely outcome is court. To be honest, I think it's going to be tough, as others have said, to prove the extent of the "damage" done. The conflicting NHRA inspector opinions will make the court proceedings interesting. In the end, John will probably get a victory which will be difficult to collect, and smaller than he deserves; and Jeff Lutz will probably suffer some small loss of business and the loss of popular opinion, which doesn't appear to concern him.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:33 PM   #1973
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Default Re: Jeff Lutz race cars = Shitty fabrication

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Originally Posted by Homespun91 View Post
Your post is well thought out and worded, and props to you for that, especially in TOBT.

The problem I see with your solution, though, is simply this:

If it was a case where, say, the top of the cage bars weren't welded because the fabricator simply forgot to complete them in the midst of all the other job details, or the chassis has a tube in a spot where the inspector feels it should be moved elsewhere per the book- those are correctable mistakes, and quite possibly "honest" ones...i.e., there was no bad intent. It could be argued that the fabricator should catch these sort of things during a final inspection. and he should....but again, at least there was no intent to cheat the customer.

However, this doesn't seem to be the case. There are incomplete welds; poor tube fitting; just plain sloppy welding; no chassis jig; a poorly located front suspension; and the list goes on.

In other words, you have at the minimum level, incompetence, and at the maximum level, negligence and an intent to cheat the customer.

At this stage (especially after the size of this thread and its viewers) it is very unlikely that the chassis fabricator is simply going to say, "You're right....I messed up all these things, I (possibly) tried to hide them with caulk, I fabbed this up on a concrete floor, and I got this thing NHRA-certed in spite of the fact it's not done, and then I took advantage of the fact that you (the buyer) aren't a chassis expert to get you to take it! Good joke, right? Well, hey, ya got me! Now, lemme take care of it the right way...I promise!"

His ego is simply not going to allow this. Even if it did....no one in their right mind would allow him to touch the car again. He's not going to admit that there were major problems with his work; and even after all that was fixed, I personally still come back to the fact that a 6.0 car was not done on a chassis jig. That would deter me from ever getting behind the wheel.

At this point the most likely outcome is court. To be honest, I think it's going to be tough, as others have said, to prove the extent of the "damage" done. The conflicting NHRA inspector opinions will make the court proceedings interesting. In the end, John will probably get a victory which will be difficult to collect, and smaller than he deserves; and Jeff Lutz will probably suffer some small loss of business and the loss of popular opinion, which doesn't appear to concern him.
No argument that the mistakes were extreme, I never suggested they were simply honest mistakes. I do wonder what someone was thinking when the car left the shop because it's obvious that sooner or later the problems would become obvious.

Regardless of the past mistakes and intentions by Jeff, what you wrote about the OP's chances of being happy with the results after pursuing it in court is just my point. Though it appears that the OP would end up winning in court and secure a "moral" victory, it also appears not likely that he will be happy with any collecting any significant monies as a result. This scenario will easily take over a year, perhaps not the best resolution for the OP.

I can't speak for the OP and what his priorities are so I just hope he does what is best for him in the long run. And I certainly hope that Jeff would try hard to resolve it considering that dragging it out will not make things better for him.
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Old 09-12-2013, 01:42 PM   #1974
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Default Re: Jeff Lutz race cars = Shitty fabrication

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Hot Rod Magazine fluffed him up ?
Bump!
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Old 09-12-2013, 02:33 PM   #1975
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Default Re: Jeff Lutz race cars = Shitty fabrication

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Originally Posted by Topfun99 View Post
I met Jeff briefly last year 2012 during Drag Week. He was friendly and loaned me a die grinder briefly for which I am thankful. Other then saying hi to him at a few NMCA events, I haven't really had any further contact with him.

Until this thread, I had respect for him. I'm not in a position to condemn him and certainly am not in a position to support him. Until now I've been just a "fly on the wall" and haven't posted an opinion - I hoped he would respond to this thread in a straight forward manner. I really wanted to hear his side of the story and if there were mistakes made, a deal worked out to correct them.

If Jeff doesn't respond, we will never know his side of the story and right or wrong, his reputation will suffer. Everyone makes mistakes and when we do, we should first admit it to ourselves then need to do our best to correct the situation.

The way I see it right now, this is heading for a lose-lose ending. Perhaps the OP should try one more time to contact Jeff and try to work out a compromise, even if he doesn't feel he's going to recover his loss 100%. And Jeff should seriously work with him on this compromise. Or perhaps Jeff should initiate contact to show he is willing to work towards a compromise. This way the situation could be resolved within a reasonable amount of time, perhaps a few weeks.

I'm not saying kiss and makeup, I'm just saying that it appears to me that both parties would be better off trying to negotiate a settlement and move on with their lives.

I hope both parties read this, take a big breath, step back and reconsider what is best for both.
The voice of reason right here folks. Most wont get it.......
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Old 09-12-2013, 02:34 PM   #1976
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Default Re: Jeff Lutz race cars = Shitty fabrication

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I've heard some people are down playing this post because of getting a Pro Mod built for 25K. John is having the indentical work donr at Larry Jeffers shop which is a FULLY WELDED CERTIFIED CHASSIS with the fiberglass Cuda body mounted for roughly 25K. Now John still has to finish the car which is what he did at Jeff's shop too but he 100% didn't get what he paid for and that's all that matters. John has way over 100K in it when you figure all the money spent and I think come people are thinking he got a complete Pro Mod which is anything but the truth.
This clears up my question about that. Thx.
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Old 09-12-2013, 02:46 PM   #1977
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...just kinda curious about the tech inspector?Wouldn't this call into question each and every chassis he certed?Like a corrupt judge often has his cases re-heard?
wheres nhra on all this?
Im curious about this as well.
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Old 09-12-2013, 02:50 PM   #1978
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Man I'm sorry to hear that you or anyone else feels that way, I honestly don't undertand how you or anyone else for that matter can fault me for standing behind a friend 110% through hell and back if needed and to help him get this not only resolved but out there so it doesn't happen to anyone else. There is a list of 15 to 20 people that had been taken before John and if they would have spoken up then maybe just maybe John wouldn't be in this situation. John got screwed plain and simple and a person that I use to call a friend did it I had to pick sides with the one that got the shaft.

I only hope you have a person you call "friend" that is willing to go the distance with you in a time of need but honestly most people don't have that 1 person they know they can call for anything and there is no questions asked.

Take care and hopefully you change your view but if not I respect that too we just can't be people who talk to each other because we have different morals and values of what true friends do for each other. I do respect you for speaking your mind most people will just talk behind someones back and not say what they feel.
Good post right here.......
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Old 09-12-2013, 03:03 PM   #1979
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The voice of reason right here folks. Most wont get it.......
It's definitely the voice of reason but when the OP has tried to be more than fair and Jeff won't come to his terms then court and public opinion are the only options to get justice.
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Old 09-12-2013, 03:10 PM   #1980
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Originally Posted by spidergearsman View Post
Hot Rod Magazine fluffed him up ?
Jeff is a great bullshitter who can make you believe its raining when you're not even getting wet. He will be seen by most as a proven liar and piss poor business man.

He uses people until their money is gone or they figure him out for what a shitty person he really is, just look at his history, mr Norris, Ron from fort Pitt racing now Willard who's next? I'm sure he's lining up the next person to steal and leach off of.
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