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Spec Engine Drag Racing - Coyote Stock

32K views 272 replies 72 participants last post by  BLUEOVALRACER 
#1 ·
Just wondering what everyone on Yellow Bullet thinks of this idea. I've been racing or crewing for guys in the NMRA for 7 years now. I have always been involved in the slower classes, Factory Stock, Pure Street and Real Street. I realize this board is made up more of the faster outlaw cars, but still wanted to get this idea out there.

For those of you not familiar with these NMRA classes or how the NMRA operates, let me give you a quick rundown of what all the racers like and what they don't.


All of the guys in these classes are there because they want to race heads up. And they choose these classes (or have in the past) because of cost. Not everyone can run outlaw DR. Over time, these classes have gotten out of control with cost (as does most heads up classes). When I started in the NMRA Pure Street would get 16+ cars to show sometimes. Same with Real Street. Now, 3 or 4 cars.

The biggest problem is the rules. You are trying to get too many different combinations matched up and fair. So when one person finds an advantage (that undoubtedly cost way too much to find) it usually gets taken away with a rule change. This hugely encourages sandbagging.

Most of the people in these classes are sick of all the work that goes in only to be rewarded with a lead trophy.


So the idea is this...


There are tons of rolling chassis sitting around that are former PS, FS and RS cars. I would like to see a spec engine class based on the new 5.0 Ford Engine. It would be a sealed engine from Ford along with a sealed race computer that randomly gets handed out before the race. So at this point, racers can focus on car setup and driving. Since these are stock engines, they would most likely last an entire season.

This type program has been successful in ASA to keep costs down and greatly improve the competition.

To give you an idea, I wouldn't blink twice if most top PS guys in the NMRA spend 20-30k on a low 10 second naturally aspirated engine.

For under $10k you could get a Coyote 5.0 engine AND the FRPP control pack. The control pack allows you to drop this engine in any car, hook up power and ground and you are done.


So I would like to hear what YB has to say about this idea. I could see it being like a mini pro stock. VERY close and exciting racing.


Thanks

Ken
 
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#2 ·
I'm in. I have a car and I'm already getting two of those engine/module packages as it is...

Hell, we don't generally even get along, but I think it's a great idea. Could be something like the old 2VNA days of old...
 
#5 ·
Well, I see the NMRA as a launching point for this idea. But I see it going further than the NMRA eventually. Not sure if you are familiar with Spec Miata racing in road racing but something like that. Multiple sanctioning bodies have those races.


So I would guess that for the NMRA version they would want it Ford only. But as the idea grows and expands past the NMRA, anything is possible.

The good thing is, you could drop this engine and control pack in a go cart and it would run.


There is a large thread going on the NMRA forum with a ton of support.


At this point if a large sponsor signed on I think it would be a done deal. I have had some talks with FRPP and they are behind the program.
 
#9 ·
This proves my point. You have a good car sitting there with nothing to do. Throw around $8k at the car gets a brand new life without worries about rules changes. Can't change the rules if every car in the class has to follow the same ones.
 
#11 ·
Well NMRA is an all ford series. But if this is successful I would like to get the same thing going with Chevy and Dodge. Then we can have a real exciting shootout type series at NMCA.


Or someone can start right now on a GM version in NMCA
 
#14 ·
No this will not be a claimer class. We feel with the same engine and computer there will be no need for it. The only advantage someone could gain is driving and chassis tuning. Same gear same intake same exhaust. And since this will PROBABLY BE A STICK ONLY CLASS the clutch setup will also be very important.
 
#15 ·
If Ford were to sponsor it in a big way, I'd say that they'd want it Ford-only. If somebody else did it... It might be fair game to put a Ford engine in other platforms...
 
#31 ·
Ah the crate engine debate. What a crock of shit. Firstly I know nothing of NMCA as we have none of that where I'am.
Just another way to push your local engine builder out of business.

It won't work. Why do you suppose GM no longer supports sealed crate engines? Because it took about 5 seconds for somebody to bootleg the sealing bolts, and thusly we started seeing $7-8k "crate engines".

If you want to start with the crate engine fine but don't bother sealing it. Let'em get inside it but tear them down randomly at every event. Who's gonna be the rebuilder? You gonna send it back to Ford for freshen and reseal? Bullshit!

I've seen this completely ruin some circle track classes and take money away from racers because now engine builders machine shops no longer sponsor the classes.

Need to seriously look at all aspects before you go down this road.

If cars are sitting becuase they are no longer competitive, blame the promoter/rules committee. They obviously didnot do there job in enforcing rules in the first place to obsolete your cars.

That being said just remember history repeats itself.

Cheers.
 
#33 ·
Well sounds like this class is not for you. Good thing you have hundreds of other heads up options. This is not an NMRA rules debate, I have had my fill of them over the last 7 years. If you don't like the class, don't get involved in it. But all the points you bring up there is an answer for. If you really want to hear them, I will PM you them. But it would just clutter up this thread.
 
#43 ·
And JHR, one more point.

You want answers before the $8k engine you buy is obsolete in 2 years.


I want answers from the NMRA about my $25k Pure Street engine being obsolete in 3 races before a rule change. Think about that.
 
#47 ·
This type program has been successful in ASA to keep costs down and greatly improve the competition.

Ken
This is a matter of opinion, one I don't share. ASA is not near the feeder series it used to be, and as far as expenses, it is much more expensive than Super Lates are, and slower to boot. Spec engines, spec clutches, spec bodies, etc... all of which are useless for anything but ASA racing, hence ZERO resale value. What rich guy is gonna want his sliced bread kid to run somebody's used parts?

Look what circle track crate racing has turned in to; blueprinted, high dollar motors that last a season(at best), all kinds of cheating, GM quits selling the sealing bolts, 1 or 2 politically connected engine builders getting ALL the rebuild business, and the back-of-the-pack guys that thought that crate racing was going to "even the field" are still racing IN THE BACK OF THE PACK, but are crying and wailing just as bad as they were before.

All classes evolve, some to the point of dissolution; it happens. New classes will take their place, until they, too evolve into something non-sustainable. One thing is constant; racers like to spend money and stretch rules.
 
#49 ·
All classes evolve, some to the point of dissolution; it happens. New classes will take their place, until they, too evolve into something non-sustainable. One thing is constant; racers like to spend money and stretch rules.
Exactly. And this is the next class. Maybe it goes away after 5 years. I'd rather have 5 years of racing a $8k engine than a 1 year of racing a $25k engine.

Based on there being 3 or 4 cars in these NMRA classes, I would say the majority agree.

Do I have all the answers? No. But this certainly seems to be a better option than what we have for next to no investment compared to what we have now.
 
#48 · (Edited)
I raced Dirt Late Models from 1990 to 2003. We ran open motors that started at around 12-15 grand. In the 90's we had car counts around 40 at each event. By 1998 or so we were paying 35grand for a 440 c.i yates headed open motor to be able to compete. Even with Dad building them Labor free we still had 20 in them. By 2006 Guys were paying 40 grand for the open motor's to race for a Thousand bucks on a typical Sat. Nite. Car counts were down to 10 to 12 cars cause only the rich could compete. Since the Tracks no longer had the pit pass money they started closing down left and right. Thats when a series called Fastrack was born with GM behind it and started a crate series. The motors are Gm 604's which were 400 steel headed deals that cost $6400. They are sealed and in the last 5 years only one guy has been caught by tryng to unseal the motor and seal it himself. In Fastrack you have to sign a waiver that says if you get caught tampering with the sealed motor you are kicked out forever!!!!!!!! It has saved Dirt late model racing. The guys have close awesome racing and are racing for way more money because of GM and there corprate partners sponsor money. They have a Gm truck on site at every series race with a crate motor in it in case a guy does hurt a valve spring etc to trade on the spot. They have two authorized GM engine rebuilders that you have to use for freshen up's. That is where IMO the integrity of the whole deal is at. THose Builders have to be, and so far in Fastracks case have been doing only what is needed for the rebuild no matter who the customer is. Also to double check that everybody has the same or close to the same HP with the crate deal they have a chassis dyno show up every so often and test the cars, which is also something you have to agree with on a waiver when you sign up to run there series. They have to run the same headers and exhaust. The carb they run can be from a diffferent carb guy so that's where we have seen the difference in power, which obviously would not be the case with the coyote. They are now racing for 30grand at there nationals at the end of the year and have a points fund which was never poss before all with this 6400 dollor motor that never breaks.
The best drivers and chassis guys rise to the top but everybody still has the chance to win at a less expensive cost and the most important thing is .It's a blast
Carry on, just wanted to add my stock car hillbilly point of view.

I still love to drive in circles


This is from the NMRA board written by Mark Anderson
 
#54 ·
Thats when a series called Fastrack was born with GM behind it and started a crate series. The motors are Gm 604's which were 400 steel headed deals that cost $6400. They are sealed and in the last 5 years only one guy has been caught by tryng to unseal the motor and seal it himself. In Fastrack you have to sign a waiver that says if you get caught tampering with the sealed motor you are kicked out forever!!!!!!!! It has saved Dirt late model racing. The guys have close awesome racing and are racing for way more money because of GM and there corprate partners sponsor money. They have a Gm truck on site at every series race with a crate motor in it in case a guy does hurt a valve spring etc to trade on the spot. They have two authorized GM engine rebuilders that you have to use for freshen up's. That is where IMO the integrity of the whole deal is at. THose Builders have to be, and so far in Fastracks case have been doing only what is needed for the rebuild no matter who the customer is. Also to double check that everybody has the same or close to the same HP with the crate deal they have a chassis dyno show up every so often and test the cars, which is also something you have to agree with on a waiver when you sign up to run there series. They have to run the same headers and exhaust. The carb they run can be from a diffferent carb guy so that's where we have seen the difference in power, which obviously would not be the case with the coyote.
Chassis dyno won't cut it, different chassis' n drivetrains in this deal with a spec motor.
 
#55 ·
Make 5 spd available ! And it'll be really exciting !! If ford sponsored I'd jump in it !
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Our idea from the beginning was the t5 and the tko so yes
 
#59 ·
The sealed ecm is the the key. With the new ecm for the coyote engine the tuning is everything there is so much you can do now that was never possible before.
 
#60 ·
I thought the dirt crate latemodel deal was going to be the best racing ever for me. Nope, guys were buying "sealed" motors from authorized builders that somehow with a "rebuild and blueprint" would make much more horsepower. Thought about trying it at the asphalt track a couple of racers there told me an out of the crate motor would not even hang. You guys might figure it out and I hope you do. Racing is skill and money and you need lots of both to win.
 
#65 ·
Just go into this with open eyes. The minute Ford drops support for any reason it dies instantly. Because crate engine racing is not going to see any support from any of the engine parts manufacturers, retailers or machine shops. Media coverage will be strong up front due to the novelty, but will quickly diminish without any advertiser push. The pool of potential contingency payers will also be commensurately smaller, meaning that payouts will be more dependant upon the actual purse.

Can it work? Certainly. But after a couple years it will have all the excitement and charm of Super Gas...

My opinion FWIW...
 
#75 ·
Why a set factory type tune?
It undermines other cheating. Hardware mods will not be beneficial if the calibration cannot take advantage of them. Plus adding "tuners" will detract from the longevity of the engines guaranteed. A set calibration will require a set fuel pressure, injectors and visual inspection of the intake/throttle body to be successful. There is nothing that can fully eliminate cheating but there are things that can certainly limit it.

With these factors controlled a $1200 set of cams will likely be worth less that 5hp, adding compression will detonate, porting the head isn't any good if you can't add more rpm, and even rpm won't help with the factory 80mm throttle body. Luckily the factory engine with FRPP cal and open exhaust will likely be around 450hp anyway and run for a long time. Tear downs can still happen but it will hardly ever be necessary.
 
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