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A/M Rules

19K views 214 replies 42 participants last post by  Butch Kemp 
#1 ·
I know it says in the rules section they would be looked back over after the 3rd race, in my opinion they should be looked back over now. The big blocks need weight added or the small block minium weight needs to be changed. Whats everybody elses opinion on this???
 
#43 ·
Lots of viewers in the thread.... what are you all thinking? Ben - what are your thoughts? Not like you to remain quiet.... unless you're up to something. :D Yeah you are....

My thoughts are don't bring a knife to a gun fight. It's not like non-conv BB and SB ford or chevy heads are unavailable and out of reach for everyone except the wealthiest. Hell, try putting together a Mopar! We probably have more in our conv heads then you have in B/Cs or B/Ts This class will never be cheap, and the sooner that people realize a 454 conv head isn't going to get it done, the better.

No way can more weight be added to BB cars, they're already way too heavy. If there has to be a weight change, it would have to be a reduction for the SBs, but hopefully no change will take place.

I found it somewhat ironic that Butch, running as fast as the fastest non-conv headed BB combos with a new program that is multi-class thinks he needs a weight break :confused:? I knew as soon as I saw 8.18 on the scoreboard that this thread would appear.

Hopefully one fast lap in the cool of a spring night with good air won't cause a knee jerk reaction and result in some more fucking rules. If the non-conv headed BB combos dominate throughout the season, THEN make the necessary adjustments. Doing it after only one race because of one fast pass is just stupid.
 
#54 ·
I have no customers in this class to protect. I like this class and want to run in it and win if I can.

I think if you add rules or changes, THAT is what kills classes. Look at car counts in other sanctions. Trying to level a heads up playing field by helping the slower racers does not work and never will. The more talented and funded racers will adopt the "weight break" loop holes meant for the little guys and beat them silly with them.

If there were only 6 cars in this class going 8.20's that would be bad why? It would be a damn good show and I bet there would be a couple more show up and try to run 8.10's and then a couple more show up to run 8.0's and so forth. It will grow with less change overall. People get fed up and spend their money elsewhere when frustrated.

But, here is my take.........



Here you go:

I want to live in a house on a lake, but I cannot afford any higher payments or taxes than I already pay for what I currently have.

I want to hang out with the doctors, lawyers and celebrities at their posh country clubs but I cannot as I am just a lowly engine builder.

I want to have steak and shrimp for lunch at a nice restaurant but only have $6 to spend, looks like Subway for me.

Should I be "given" a deal on a house & property on that lake? Should I be allowed to join that club at a discounted rate? Should I be able to eat better for less?

Butch is an experienced racer with good equipment and appears to be well funded.

Alan has good equipment and appears to be well funded. I do not know about his experience but he seems to drive quite well and has run 8.18 and won a race already.

Should they be penalized because of what they are able to do with their hardware and resources?

With deals like this out there, I cant see why anyone would run a conv. head in a car they only plan to run at Milan.
http://www.racingjunk.com/category/0/unset/post/1889563/14-Degree-Big-Chief-Cyl.-Heads.html
Maybe because that same seller has a set of conventional heads for only $2,200 for sale. That is a $2,800 savings. If someone buys those, should he be "given" a weight break to make him run with the more expensive heads?

I am going to try and be as unbiased in this discussion as possible from the racer in me, not the engine builder.

Butch a 3500 pound car isn't going to go 1.16 60's on those tires.




I am pretty sure this car went 1.21 with out wheelie bars. Bars would improve it by .02 at least.

Now let me switch modes here to an engine builder.

I have a big SBX small block coming out that will be fast, in a fox body for this class specifically. You're going to remove weight from this combo? That would be a big mistake because this is a combo developed for the class. Where, we are talking about removing weight for small block combos that are not optimized for the class? What is all your answer to that, given the situation I'm presenting here?

What happens when you remove weight from limited small blocks and then someone comes in with an outlaw small block? That IS going to happen, from multiple people soon.... now the big blocks are struggling, and even more so in the heat.

I don't know the answer.
Politics. If it is not out there it does not exist. This just protects the person(s) already competing by instilling fear of the unknown. Deal with it when it happens. It would be a natural evolution anyways. Remember the saying: No matter how big, strong, fast, etc. you are, there is always someone better coming.

Lets address the suspension issue. The fastest 60 footing car the class has ever seen, has a suspension weight break. Is that right for the class?
Someone was obviously concerned with this. This weight "break" (unlike the other breaks & penalties) is half of the standard of the industry break in all of the other sanctions?

I find it quite humorous that a Big Block 525 c.i. NMCA car COULD show up and take 225 lbs off and I show up with my 399 c.i. small block and have to ADD 25 lbs.

I'm sure you could look at what other sanctions are doing and come up with some "help" for the small blocks and conventional headed big blocks without giving away the farm. You just cannot expect to be able to receive enough help to let your $15K engine compete against a $35K engine. The only thing that will help it is about $20K. I'm thinking I'm about $10K away from running good.
 
#44 ·
Any ideas on how to make a Chevelle lighter? I can't even get the thing to 3350lbs! I would like to see a conventional head weight break, then I really need to race a different car to take advantage of the new weight huh?
Hell, I thought the 8.18 was pretty cool. However, did you notice he had problems leaving the line in the final? There is still luck out there for the slower cars!
I think Butch's car was the most consistant from start to finish. The lighter cars will have the advantage for starting line consistancy for sure.... just wait until the hot sun.
 
#47 ·
No where near the cubic inch his motor is only 707ci im almost positve. And Alans is a 638 and i heard Vans was over 700ci's not sure about that though. Whether or not kemps motor is 2 or 3 years old it still has better heads on it than mine. My heads are from 98'. In order for me to run 8.20s i would have to get a new set done which would cost $7500 i dont have that kind of money to spend. If i was to do that i might as well sell my motor and go by an ex pro stock engine that makes 1400 h.p.
 
#50 ·
You're saying you don't want to spend 7500 dollars on the correct heads for the class, but all your competitors have spent the money, and new up coming competitors are spending the money. There can't be weight breaks for wallet sizes...

I hear your points but they kind of go out the window when you are asking for weight because of a parity issue, and THEN begin to complain about the wallet and you're telling the whole class that you are racing with old technology......... running .40's and .50's.

You've basically just acknowledged that there isn't a weight issue, but that your engine is not up to the task. If those heads are from 1998, then heck yes.... there's a lot left on the table.

It's almost a cliche' these days but this is heads up racing and that costs money.... which you already know. I don't like pulling out the wallet, who does... but you are racing against people who are willing to open their wallets up.

As for Mag, at least from the discussions I've had, that new engine was never going in the all motor car, it's for his outlaw 10.5 car. Far as I know, the All Motor car is ready to race with the small block.
 
#49 ·
I just can't hang anymore !
might go index racing or bracket or sell the car have not made up my mind yet ask me tomorrow you never know
 
#52 ·
or that small APD knows it all!
 
#53 ·
I do want to clarify, that my last response above was not a criticism, or to cause any trouble. I'm actually a big fan of your team and the car. You guys deserve a lot of credit for the way it runs. It's just not an easy situation for anyone in this kind of class, and passions get fired up.
 
#57 ·
Somebody hold the wine, I just ran out of cheese.


Seriously I enjoy watching you guys race and the Internet debates are quite entertaining too.


Geez Ben you saying my 15K Roush motor (built to my specs not Bens) won't be competitive? LOL

I guess that's why I keep my time in the bottle (yeah the blue one).
 
#58 ·
Ben your right the 15,000 is not going to be enough to hang with the middle of the pack, and i think Allen's car is going to show some teens alot more when they have have the 60 down like that all the time
Watch the video of the 8.18 pass seems to me that 1.2 60ft was with the rear tire, congrats again!
 
#59 ·
Was this class intended to be budget-oriented or low-buck at any point?

If the answer is no then there's no cause for argument over somebody spending more money to be more competitive than the next guy. Considering that, there's also no reason to ever worry about leveling the playing field unless car counts are low and/or grandstands are empty.

Classes that are intended to be inclusive to a broad range of participant incomes & backgrounds are generally created with that in mind upfront. I don't get the impression that A/M was designed with that in mind.

For the guys who are upset because their stuff isn't the fastest thing out there I would suggest that you accept the possibility that you are smart enough but do not have the financial means to pursue this class & move on.

If the guys who have resources to acquire whatever is available at whatever cost have any interest in racing against the guys with conventional heads & small blocks with older combinations, then I have a suggestion: ADD A RULE CHANGE THAT REQUIRES 2" DIAMETER PIPE NO SHORTER THAN 6" LONG TO THE HEADER COLLECTORS.

This is a LOT cheaper & WAY EASIER to add to the cars & check in tech than a million different engine/trans/cylinder head/CID combinations with at least 5 different possibilities for rear suspension combinations.
 
#60 ·
I sure hope the "conventional" head comments arent being mixed in with the "lack of funds" complaints some have because they are definitely not one in the same. Building a fast conventional headed BB usually costs more than non-conventional and often requires more R&D.

I also understand the point though that people have built non conventional BB combos specificaly for this class because of how the rules are written. If that is how the class is going to stay because of healthy car counts, then so be it. If the car counts start hurting though, I think there should be thought put into allowing other max effort BB combos the ability to be competitive, which they are not currently.
 
#61 ·
I sure hope the "conventional" head comments arent being mixed in with the "lack of funds" complaints some have because they are definitely not one in the same. Building a fast conventional headed BB usually costs more than non-conventional and often requires more R&D.

I also understand the point though that people have built non conventional BB combos specificaly for this class because of how the rules are written. If that is how the class is going to stay because of healthy car counts, then so be it. If the car counts start hurting though, I think there should be thought put into allowing other max effort BB combos the ability to be competitive, which they are not currently.
I'm curious what you consider "competitive". Do you have a certian number within the number one qualifier or something?

Conv. vs. Chiefs: There are plenty of wild conventional heads that will out perform off the shelf big chiefs. You have to remember that some of the larger cube guys are not spending a ton of time on development, nor going max effort. They are using the cubes to compensate for it. Some do this for the ease of maintenence as well. Yes, I will agree that their is a "potenial" for someone to do it.....but I havent seen it yet - in Milan A/M (max effort - big cube / big chief).

You stated earlier that your approx. 1200 hp. At 3300 (I am assuming you have ladder bars), you should be "competitive". I would think you could run in the .30's. Which in my opinion, puts you in "the game". #1 no, but probably get you in the semi's for sure. And....shit happens!
 
#63 ·
I have a 4-link, wheelie bars, and hoosier tires. That puts me at 3450lbs with ~1200hp.

I will know more in the weeks to come of how fast I think my car will be capable of running so I don't want to comment too much yet about it as I dont like speculating.

As for what I consider competitive, as the season progresses I think 8.1s to 8.2s are going to be what it takes to go rounds without counting on luck.

Again, I don't expect rules to be changed for me if things are going great with the class.
 
#66 ·
I have a 4-link, wheelie bars, and hoosier tires. That puts me at 3450lbs with ~1200hp.

.
Certainly doesn't seem right being almost the same weight as Alan, but keep in mind that you didn't build a milan combination. You built it for Canada without regard for Milan, and by pure luck you fit into Milans rules(what little rules there are, just making a point)

Now on to my HiJack tangent...


In the beginning of the Milan class, it was only meant for n/a racers to have a local place to sow their heads up racing oats... and have fun on a friday night. It was made clear over and over that this was never meant to be a serious class.

It was also made clear back to Milan, that we are all serious about n/a racing... rightfully so and that we needed rule structure to harness the class. Well maybe thats the correct approach and maybe it's not.

To date I've not seen a rule structure work in a true n/a heads up class, other than NHRA.

And it's because of this - There are a minority of people who have the capacity to race successfully in an n/a heads up class. And by capacity, I mean Funds, Ingenuity, Ethic, and Energy.

The majority who do not have that capacity get worn out spending the money, the time, basically their livelyhood to race car at an extreme level...

That's not a slight against anyone nor am I speaking to anyone, but lets take Butch for example(sorry Butch)

The guy has been at it for 8 years or more full throttle. The guy is a machine in all departments. Funds, Ingenutiy, Work Ethic, and Energy... I'd like to think I can compete with that but.... in the face of reality, probably not.

Regardless of a rule structure, few people are going to have the capacity to stick with it in a continual development atmosphere. That may not be a popular statement, but it's a fact, based on the years that I have been involved in this kind of racing. Pure fact. Again, that is not a negative statement toward anyone because really in some way I see as positive that people get smart, and move on with their lives with better priorities... :D Family, work, money, etc... Lets face it, this racing is nothing but a time of life robbery, and you could only do worse with your money by blowing it on CRACK.

My end all points are that with a rule structure, or without a rule structure, there will be bitching and complaining. There will be parity issues, and there will be a loss of competitors.... and the class will have a small field.... just based on all of the above.

And lastly I could not care less either way if the class was heavily structured or not. Won't really change the outcome.
 
#78 ·
Weight per cubic inch would certainly help level the playing field somewhat. But it changes the hot combination from the biggest possible engine to the smaller displacement, wildly over-square, higher revving engines. What happens when someone builds a class-killer small displacement engine in a lightweight car to the new rules and is 2-3 tenths in front of everyone who didn't have money to do a new engine.
 
#79 ·
Here's a suggestion:
1. Rename the Friday Night All Motor to Outlaw All Motor
- remove all the +/- weights (scoops, suspension, transmission)
- allow sheetmetal intakes and twin carbs
- 29.5 Tire
- BB and SB weights only
LET'R EAT !!!

2. Create a new class on Saturday - Limited All Motor
- have a big - giant list of rules for every +/- weight possible
- pump everything, measure everything, etc
- 28'' Tire (or 29.5)
- weight to cubic inch
- lets not forget the 2'' tail pipe idea, this is a must!! :rolleyes:
- Make it a 32 (or bigger) field, that way EVERYONE gets to race
- Possible weight break for the un-employed
 
#81 ·
It actually doesn't have to be that extensive. See my earlier comments about exhaust outlet restriction.
 
#86 ·
You guys are thinking way too hard......................its as simple as disallowing digital ignition boxes......????????how hard is that to change??
 
#87 ·
Fundamentally Butch, I agree with you from the standpoint that it won't require very many line items for rules to shore things up a bit.

For what it's worth, analog boxes were another thought I've had for this and this is also based on experience with other racing venues that require an 8" treaded DOT tire.

The only problem in the A/M application is the analog box can help even things up at the bottom of the track but there's still a ton of room for a small few with deep pockets to run ~10 MPH faster than everyone else.

Bottom line from my end is instead of trying to make guys like you or Alan bend over backwards it'd be better to start a fresh class that has a lot of consideration placed into it from the beginning so the folks with less discretionary funding can race & not feel hopeless.

Instead, take enough time up front to define some rules that essentially make extraordinary spending become a futile exercise and let the growth & gains be the primary result of applied ingenuity & hard work on the car.

This same approach has done well in other racing activities where the discrepancies in raw engine HP from highest to lowest are huge but other class requirements actually can make the big power become a detriment. Results vary but in general it winds up generating bigger car counts, more participation, etc. etc. etc.
 
#93 ·
Load your stuff up and come to grand bend saturday morning.
 
#98 ·
if someone wants to lease my car let me know for this canada race;)
 
#106 ·
Anyone take note of any other levels of racing?. I only ask as it's apparent to me that even if you stipulate that all cars must weigh "W", must use tire "X" and you can only use an engine of cubic inch "Y" and MUST weigh "Z"....that's only four variables...it won't EVER be on a level playing field. The only level playing field in racing i've ever seen was IROC roundy round racing. It was even...but it wasn't racing.

Woo sprint cars are cubic inch/weight limited....but they are the farthest thing from parody.

NASCAR...same way. Money wins. The stipulations/rules are just something to work around.

Just my uneducated $.02. You guys have a good thing going.
 
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