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Chomoly cage filler besides ER70/80

12K views 79 replies 30 participants last post by  jmink427 
#1 ·
I question the filler used on my 25.5 chromoly cage. It looks to be stainless, it's definitely not ER70/ER80. As I'm waiting for a response from the fabricator to inform me of the filler used, I received some 2nd hand information about it. Here's what I received:

"The rod has 50% ' more tensile strenght than S2 and elongation is 36 % as oposed to the 29% of S2. This is the get down shit and I am surprised we don't see more of it. The color also tells a lot about how much heat was used to weld it. If it has a blue tint you need more heat, brown was too hot. The goldish stainless look was perfect."

Its supposedly an Aerospace filler. Anyone have any idea what the filler maybe? I know its been beat to death before, but i would like to from those who do and don't use ER70/ER80 on chromoly cages.

If you don't use ER70/80 filler what do you use, and why?
 
#2 ·
Use er70s2 for filler, excellent strength AND DUCTILITY.

Never use 4130 rod for a filler on a roll cage,

mechanical properties in the finished weld is TOO brittle.

Stainless rod make a really beautiful weld ,but I don't

believe it has the correct strength and/or ductility.


I'm sure someone else that works on this stuff all day,

can fill you in more.

Your Pal, Gary
 
#5 ·
ER70 and 80 S2 is mild steel rod, its used in chromoly welding because you don't have to heat treat/stress relieve the weld after. Just weld and air cool. 4130 rod on 4130 base material is a no-no because that MUST be stress relieved and tempered. As far a stainless rod on moly tube, never done any pull tests so I won't do it, not to say it can't be done.
 
#8 ·
Do you want to me to mail you mine when.................................

I CUT IT THE FUCK OUT!

I could probably beat all the floor bars out with a hand sledge since the shit has gaps bigger than a crack whores pussy and its not welded no more than 40%

How about the bars on the funny car cage that are 1/2 welded too. How Am I too finish welding it when i dont know what the top secret throw down filler is.
 
#11 ·
everyone is going to have a different answer. the shop that did my 25.5 used 310 rod and it certed just fine. he says he uses 310 on his trophy trucks with no problems. told me if you use stainless rod with 4130 310 was best, 312 is good, 309-308 don't use. good luck.
 
#12 · (Edited)
everyone is going to have a different answer. the shop that did my 25.5 used 310 rod and it certed just fine. he says he uses 310 on his trophy trucks with no problems. told me if you use stainless rod with 4130 310 was best, 312 is good, 309-308 don't use. good luck.
Big question is, did the person who did the chassis cert actually know it was welded with 310ss? Or can they cert thier own chassis? Not trying to be a dick here, I've always used er70-s2 rod, I don't ever recall the tech guy who came to cert my chassis's asking me what filler I used. They were just concerned with wall thickness,weld completion and tube dia. tube placement bla bla. If they knew it was ss rod would it still pass? I may email my division tech director and ask,its got me wondering.
 
#18 ·
Why don't you just tell him what it is and if I'm reading this right why was his car delivered without the welding finished or are you guys just busting each others balls and I'm intrested in what is better than ER70 because I'm starting a new build over new years weekend so I'm curious
 
#20 ·
ERNiCrMo-2 - ALLOY X


ALLOY X AWS A 5.14-89 CLASS ERNiCrMo-2 SAE-AMS 5798D
Alloy X is a Nickel-Chromium-Molybdenum "superalloy" used for welding
similar base metals such as Hastelloy® X to itself or to Stainless Steels,
Carbon Steels or low-alloy Steels. Alloy X provides an exceptional
combination of oxidation, corrosion and thermal shock resistance. Weld
deposits of Alloy X have high temperature strength and resist weld metal
fatigue at temperatures up to 2,200°F. Alloy X is used in the aircraft
industry for engine exhaust systems, turbine blades, nozzle vanes and
afterburner components. Tensile strength: 109,500 psi. Elongation is 42%.
Hastelloy is a registered trademark of Haynes Int'l, Inc.



 
#25 ·
ERNiCrMo-2 - ALLOY X


ALLOY X AWS A 5.14-89 CLASS ERNiCrMo-2 SAE-AMS 5798D
Alloy X is a Nickel-Chromium-Molybdenum "superalloy" used for welding
similar base metals such as Hastelloy® X to itself or to Stainless Steels,
Carbon Steels or low-alloy Steels. Alloy X provides an exceptional
combination of oxidation, corrosion and thermal shock resistance. Weld
deposits of Alloy X have high temperature strength and resist weld metal
fatigue at temperatures up to 2,200°F. Alloy X is used in the aircraft
industry for engine exhaust systems, turbine blades, nozzle vanes and
afterburner components. Tensile strength: 109,500 psi. Elongation is 42%.
Hastelloy is a registered trademark of Haynes Int'l, Inc.



it,s for welding dissimilar metals together
 
#23 ·
Some guys use stainless and super missile rod BECAUSE it makes a very pretty beautiful cute gold colored weld that everyone slobbers over.I for one would not want to be in a high speed crash in a drag racing car that was welded with that.................. the out come is not pretty.
 
#79 · (Edited)
Ouch... 2 half welded bars in 1 pic.. not to mention the grand canyon gap... Yikes... this thing is worse then I thought it was gonna be...

I know I joke around and give you shit but I seriously feel bad for ya 1Bad... That thing is jacked and not even close to certing 25.5 it's missing a ton of shit...

 
#26 ·
As Jim mentioned, the SS rods and "SuperMissile" stuff is simply because guys cannot control the heat when welding with ER70/80. I am with Jim and would NEVER do a cage with this stuff or recommend it to anyone. The chassis cert thing is a different deal...the certifier usually wont be able to tell what rod was used unless he is some kind of metallurgist or something.
Also, as Mikey said...its no "top secret" rod...it is for welding dissimilar metals, and used mainly in very high heat applications(which a cage is not).
This is the type of stuff that gets people injured or worse. Im not sure where in Cali you are, but let me know if I can be of any help. Good luck with the rest of the project!
 
#28 · (Edited)
Material cert

Welding Material Sales, Inc.
PO Box 786, Geneva, IL 60134
630-232-6421 Fax: 630-232-4619

Actual Certified Material Test Report
Alloy:​
ERNiCrMo-3 (AWS A5.14)
Diameter / Size:​
.035
Heat Number:​
134333
Trace Code:​
60
Country of Origin:​

Date Entered:​
10/27/2009
Entered By:​
BY
Chemical Analysis:
Aluminum (Al):​
.12
Carbon (C):​
.014
Chromium (Cr):​
22.11
Copper (Cu):​
.01
Iron (Fe):​
.25
Manganese (Mn):​
.05
Molybdenum (Mo):​
8.96
Nickel (Ni):​
64.57
Phosphorus (P):​
.003
Silicon (Si):​
.07
Sulfur (S):​
.002
Titanium (Ti):​
.27
Cb / Ta:​
3.52

Typical Certified Material Test Report
Alloy:​
ERNiCrMo-3 (AWS A5.14)
Date Entered:​
8/6/2008
Entered By:​
MJH

Chemical Analysis:

Carbon (C):​
0.009
Chromium (Cr):​
21.9
Iron (Fe):​
0.62
Manganese (Mn):​
0.05
Molybdenum (Mo):​
8.65
Nickel (Ni):​
BAL
Silicon (Si):​
0.12
Cb / Ta:​
3.7
YIELD STRENGTH, PSI AS WELDED 85,000​
TENSILE STRENGTH, PSI AS WELDED 114,500​
% ELONGATION IN 2" AS WELDED 27​
Wow 65% nickel and only .25 iron, I know it is -3 but would not expect the percentages to change that much

This is for ER310 rod

Welding Material Sales, Inc.
PO Box 786, Geneva, IL 60134
630-232-6421 Fax: 630-232-4619

Actual Certified Material Test Report
Alloy:​
ER310 (AWS A5.9)
Diameter / Size:​
.035
Heat Number:​
448926
Trace Code:​

Country of Origin:​

Date Entered:​
9/17/2004
Entered By:​
JLA
Chemical Analysis:
Carbon (C):​
0.1200
Chromium (Cr):​
25.9000
Copper (Cu):​
0.0300
Manganese (Mn):​
1.6400
Molybdenum (Mo):​
0.0500
Nickel (Ni):​
20.9200
Nitrogen (N):​
0.0370
Phosphorus (P):​
0.0130
Silicon (Si):​
0.3300
Sulfur (S):​
0.0010

Typical Certified Material Test Report
Alloy:​
ER310 (AWS A5.9)
Date Entered:​
8/7/2008
Entered By:​
MJH

Chemical Analysis:

Carbon (C):​
0.11
Chromium (Cr):​
27.10
Manganese (Mn):​
1.90
Nickel (Ni):​
20.95
Silicon (Si):​
0.40
Ferrite WRC:​
0
YIELD STRENGTH PSI AS WELDED 60,500​
TENSILE STRENGTH, PSI AS WELDED 89,500​
% ELONGATION IN 2" AS WELDED 34​

From what I understand if not mentioned the balance of the material not mentioned is iron.

The "superod" may be good stuff if you are welding to nickel alloys as mentioned but not worth a dam for steel to steel. At least the 310 has approx 50% iron in it. Fairly low carbon to make it a fairly ductile steel.
Guess I will stick with my ER70S LOL

Edit that did not post very well after the copy and paste LOL

Links

http://www.weldingmaterialsales.com/cert_report.asp?ID=333

http://www.weldingmaterialsales.com/cert_report.asp?ID=4903

May need to leave your email address to see them
 
#30 ·
I'm so close and no smiley? I know what the rod is and shops with record setting Cars Don't use it even though its been mentioned to use it. Guess its time to find out why suppliers recommend it.

Lastly why would I believe it was the filler used, if it even should be used? SFI doesn't list it. Every conversation during the time the car was there where overpromised under delivered fabrications LOL the irony!

Pictures will be posted in due time. That will be for the trash or be trashed section
 
#34 ·
Maintenance Welding Rod:

Certanium 707 is such a welding rod.
It is similar to 312 stainless but my analysis showed a much higher Chromium content.
The tests I had run indicated a chromium content of around 40%.
312 stainless arc welding rods have about 30% chromium and 9% nickel and the rest is mostly iron.
But Maintenance welding electrode manufacturers are not bound by AWS specifications and if they discover that an extra 10% chromium helps the rod weld better, crack less, and makes a stronger weld, then by gosh they will add it.
In fact , they are free to add frog legs, sawdust, and pig testicles if they want to.
Other welding electrodes similar to Certanium 707 are:
Eutectic 680, American filler metals Patriarc, All State 275, MG 600, Inweld 955, UTP 65, Welco Supermissileweld, and Rockmont Brutus A.

The cool thing about maintenance rods is that they work.


They are not bound by AWS or UNS tolerances for chemical composition so if they discover that a little more of this or that works better for welding thru rust or coatings, then they can add it and not get spanked for not complying with a AWS specs.
Besides, Maintenance Welding rod makers are very tight lipped on the exact composition of their maintenance welding rods anyway.

When they find a recipe that works and that welders like, they keep it a big secret.
 
#39 ·
I do a lot of tool steel welding on injection molds and punch press dies UTP 65 is a life saver when repairing damaged dies!!!!!!
 
#36 ·
Speaking of secrets...

some maintenance welding rods are not much different than 312 or 309 stainless welding electrodes. In fact, since they wont say whats in them, what is to keep a company from buying some 312 stainless rods and labeling them with some exotic name like Neptune Astro and charging 10 times as much?

I have heard from some welders that some suppliers charge as much as 100 dollars a pound for Certanium 707.
309 and 312 are way cheaper...like around 20 bucks a pound..sometimes less.
 
#41 ·
sounds like some one got ass fucked by king kong with no lube while king kongs buddy face fucked you so hard you were unable to breath... that would explain why you pulled your car out of a real shop and took it to a date rape chop shop. :)
 
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