MSD Boost controller

[Maliboost]

I was just looking on MSD's web site about thier boost controller & the instructions say that it comes with 1 valve/solenoid & no pressure transducers. however, on the Pneumatic Schematics, it shows 2 valves.

My questions are:

Did you guys get one or 2 valves with it when you bought it?

Where did you get your CO2 bottles & regulators?

Can you use Nitrogen or compressed air? CO2 would be a PITB to get refilled all the time.

thanks
Bob

[Broke]

The MSD comes with 2 solenoids. You can get the CO2 set up from Summit or Jeg's or even Ebay. I have heard of people using nitrous in a pinch so I imagine nitrogen would work too. Good luck.

[Maliboost]

thanks amigo
Bob

[Monty Mikho]

I was just looking on MSD's web site about thier boost controller & the instructions say that it comes with 1 valve/solenoid & no pressure transducers. however, on the Pneumatic Schematics, it shows 2 valves.

My questions are:

Did you guys get one or 2 valves with it when you bought it?

Where did you get your CO2 bottles & regulators?

Can you use Nitrogen or compressed air? CO2 would be a PITB to get refilled all the time.

thanks
Bob

2

The Chassis Shop ~ http://www.chassisshop.com/

CO2? Welding supply store and Paintball store will fill CO2 bottles..

[Maliboost]

thanks Monty.

Bob

[Maliboost]

more Controler questions..................

Does anyone besides the AMS controller, make a controller that will controll to more than one level of boost during the run?

Bob

[Broke]

What do you mean by more than one level of boost? The MSD works off of a curve and the Innovative works on stages, psi vs. time.

[Monty Mikho]

Broke is correct..

The MSD box uses a MAP or Pressure transducer to accomplish a set pressure set by a map written for it. Kind of like a graph where you have pretty much endless amounts of adjustment on the run.. How well it works is yet to be figured out for me.. AMS I believe is setup the same.. But not sure

The time based stuff is a timer set up for solenoids to activate at set times. When activated the set pressure on the regulators will be the amount of boost wanted/needed..

Im starting with a time based boost controller. Just 2 stages.. After that I wanna play with the MSD stuff as it seem to have a pretty cool concept behind it.. But I dont want to overwhelm myself with crap before getting a handle on things the basic way first...

[Maliboost]

Maybe Im not understanding it right, but I understood that the Innovative controller controls the boost to one level , but has a slope that limits how fast it comes in, essentially slowing down the rate that the boost comes in. (ignoring burn out & the "extra boost" thing) (does not control overshoot, with a bang-bang control, but simple to setup)

the MSD unit, also has one boost level, but uses a PID loop to control how fast it comes in & to control how much it overshoots once it gets to the setpoint. (my question here would be how long does it take to dial in the PID loop?).

the AMS unit has 6 setpoints that can be brought in on a timed basis or a Gear Position Switch (something I think that the Motec also does). the cool thing about the AMS is that you can have 6 boost levels (say 10, 20, 30, 40 Lbs) & bring them in @ different times & with different slopes (rates). so lets say:
10 Lbs for 1.5 seconds
20 Lbs for 1.2 seconds
30 Lbs for .7 seconds
40 Lbs for xx seconds (until you hit the breaks @ the end of the run)

I would think in a tire limited class this would be the only way to go.

the thing I wonder about the AMS unit is, that it does not control the amount of boost, it controls the amount of air pressure to the Waste Gate, you just have to know how much boost that corelates to. how do you figure out how much air pressure translates to what amount of boost? I think that depends on how much CO2 pressure you have, boost you have, & what the spring pressure is in the WG. No/Yes? I suppose in the end, it does not matter. your gonna run with 10 mango's if you can hook it up & if you can hook up more, your gonna run 15 mango's, if less traction that day, then 8 mango's

Anyway, maybe I need to go back through the Innovate manual & re-read it again & see if Im missing something.

am I all wet or am I reading it right?

thanks
Bob

[Monty Mikho]

Bob, the MSD controller is unlimited (well kinda) in boost control in .1 second increments..

Meaning..

.1 = 1#
.2 = 2#
.3 = 3#
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
1.1 = 12#
1.2 = 11.9#
.
.
.
.
.
.
3.5 = 22.6#
3.6 = 22.9#


Basically its a graph.. draw the graph and the pressure transducer will read in output boost PSI.. and adjust accordingly to maintain the boost written in the graph. The PID numbers need to be fine tuned to adjust for over shooting in adjustments.. undershooting in adjustment.. or erratic pressure compensation...

Basiclly you have two solenoids.. One to put CO2 on the top of the gate.. and one to exhaust pressure from the gate (This is using CO2 on both ends).. If you would like 22.6#'s of boost at 3.8 seconds into the run the graph written will show 22.6#'s in that part. The input solenoid will open input air on the gate to maintain 22.6#'s by reading the MAP or pressure transducer input value. If it is too high.. it will close the input solenoid.. and open the exhaust solenoid.. The over shoot on exhaust would be if the solenoid stayed open too long and exhausted too much CO2.. This would in turn open the input solenoid and play the back and forth game.. Anyway the manual explains it in better detail.. Im going to set up a test fixture to play with the thing just to see what everything does.. People are saying it is a PITA (PITB) to use. I think its a very cool concept.. We have used programmable pressure regulators in the past. This line of thinking is along the same lines.. If all goes to $#!T I have a backup plan.. I think :rolleyes:

[Maliboost]

Right on Monty. I am going to re-read the manual for it & see if I cant make better sense of it. I just read the ITS manual again & its a LOT more complex than I made it out to be.

it has 6 programable boost levels. you can step it through those levels with a momentary switch (like a clutch, or a simple push button)
OR it has 4 timers that you can program in .1 second intervals
OR if your using the timers & you want to got the next boost level even though the timer is not finished timing out, you hit the button & it goes to the next level.

they will also allow you to reference manifold pressure for the control signal or the CO2 pressure. either way it wants you to tell it what your doing.

I have done had to tune in a few PID Temp controllers & they are a PITB. you have hysterisis & lag time & response time & all of that stuff................... I would almost want to go with another controller to avoid that. although a red birdie told me that once you have a run or two in the bank, its supposed to be pretty simple to get fingered out. I also hear he's supposed to be in Orlando, so if you dont have it fingered out, maybe we could get him to hold school. LOL.

Bob

[redvictor]

good explaination Monty.I have an MSD unit also and would like to see the results of your testing.......only because i'm a lazy phucker and can't be arsed to test it myself....LOL

[Maliboost]

the innovative manual has an interesting thing I thought on how to verify that things were working right. its @ the back of the manual in its T/S section.

in short you put air pressure to the thing while the engine is off, but the controller is running & you increase the air pressure & listen to the air coming out of the valves. it should come out of one valve until you have cranked up the pressure to the set point & then it should open the other one as you pass the set point. pretty cool idea. to be sure you have it wired up & plumbed up right.


Bob

[control freak]

Control is not just getting up to X amount of target and maintaining that. What's more important is how many ways you can get there. The AMS-1000 has 100 different ramps it can apply per stage X 6 stages =600 points of pressure resolution. There is nothing out there that can match the AMS-1000 in control. Guys who have used it can overlay what there boost curve looks like now with the AMS-1000 against any other control they have tried and they will all tell you there is no comparison.

PID stinks...its hard for the end user to set up and it constantly chnages.

Every controller out there uses a PID control loop except ours. We didnt do what everybody else does and use a PID loop. We developed our own control logic, nothing like it anywhere....thus the results when using our controller.

Congrats to David Wolf and Turbo People on the Jaw dropping Drag Radial record.

Ams-1000 "control is power"

[redvictor]

hey control freak,does the AMS work with boost pressure or does it have to work with C02 only? I'm interested in that unit if it's easier to work with than the MSD unit.This why i need control....572ci,twin 88's on 315 tyres.....
http://www.topnitro.co.uk/06-pre-main/Gallery/images/TN2011.jpg

[control freak]

you can use it with manifold pressure as the source but we recommend co2. The controller can only apply whats available.
Example:

.40 sec out of the hole you want to pin the gate with 60 psi

aint gunna happen with manifold pressure because you dont have that kind of manifold pressure to apply.
Co2...its there

The controller is very easy to set up.

We control 550hp turbo bikes on a single street tire with a 6 inch contact patch.
We are 30 psi in less than 5 seconds...
it can either spin or flip....you must have the best control available to apply this kind of power.

You have 2 tires and a huge contact patch............it will turn your program around!

Just ask anybody who uses it....

[redvictor]

shoot me a mail with a price on redvictor1@hotmail.com.I'm based in the UK but if it's what i need i'll be having it....Jay Allen supplied my cam,Neal Chance the converter,Hutch my trans parts etc.......

[Six_Shooter]

I think I need to change my pants.......

I don't have that happen often.....

Beautiful set-up, looks even better in that pic then the others while it was being built.

[redvictor]

hey,thanks Six shooter...appreciate it....