Untapped Power?--Jay/Chris Uratchko

[craig w.]

Chris, you know pretty much what's in my motor and what my cam is. How much do you think I'm leaving on the table with my setup using your old cam?

Jay, the cam is from Chris' 358 SBC from a couple years back. He's sworn me to secrecy on the specs. The rest of the setup goes like this:

3250 lb. '73 Nova, stock suspension
15:1 434 sbc--Olds Rocket block, raised cam, 55mm roller bearings
Brodix 18X heads by CFM. 58cc chambers, 350 cfm at .700-.800" on the intake, about 280cfm on the exhaust at the same lift. I can give you the entire flow "curve" if you want it.
800# springs at .800"
1.6 roller rockers (not shaft, probably need to change this before long)
Isky lifters
Brodix 1800 intake by CFM
NOS Cheater or Big Shot plate system--so far just using the Cheater
4.155" bore, 4.00" stroke, 6" h-beam rods, flattops
1000 cfm Holley 4150
1-7/8 x 3.5" Stahl headers, 3.5" bullet mufflers
'Glide and 4500 stall 9.5" converter by Bradco in Louisville
4.11 gears
26x8.5" slicks (class rule)

So far the car has run a 5.95@116.5 on a 175hp shot with a 1.37 60'. Its gone 1.35 on a 150 shot when the tires were newer. The class record is 5.71, which I think I can run with the Big Shot setup and a lot more chassis tuning.

Anyway, maybe Chris will share the cam specs and we can discuss this. Or if he'd rather keep this private, give me an e-mail at craig@2quicknovas.com if you don't mind.

Thanks!

[Jay Allen]

Chris PM me.

Sounds to me like something is wrong. It ran 5.90's on the spray with CU's cam? Or you are changing to his cam now?

[craig w.]

That was running Chris' cam with the setup I listed and a 175hp shot of nitrous.

Are you surprised it ran that well with that cam or are you thinking it should have been a lot faster? With the the little tires, you have to leave a little soft, so I've got quite a bit of timing pulled out upon launch. The top end mph is quite a bit lower than the guys I run against. The fastest guys are running 122-124.

Thanks for the quick reply and taking time to help. I appreciate it.

[Chris Uratchko]

Craig just keep the specs between you, me and jay. I already filled Jay in on them.

Anyhow, the headers, and rockers are killing you... for the nitrous deal, I'd stick 2 1/8" header on there and Jay will fill you in on the rockers.

That thing should go easy 5.90's on motor alone.

[craig w.]

Yeah, I don't like the rockers at all. I had to grind on them quite a bit to clear the 1.625" springs. Ran out of money when putting it together last summer, so a shaft setup didn't happen. They are holding up OK so far, but I'm wondering how long that'll last.

If I could optimize the converter and gearing for motor-only, I know it would be a bunch quicker. As-is, the tight converter and 4.11s make it a slug without the bottle.

I hadn't even thought about the headers being a problem.

Thanks Chris. So what's the latest on your ride? Haven't heard you say much about it lately.

Thanks.

[Jay Allen]

Chris and I have been PM'ing back and forth. Here is what I think. Now remember, you asked.

I have done plenty of 10.5 tire racing. I understand that, sorta. What that means is I do not agree entirely with pulling power to get the car to leave. The car is far more important than engine in MOST (read again) MOST cases.

The 1.6/1.6 rocker arm is killing what the cam is attempting to do. You have a combination that should have a broad power curve but you are choking it with improper rocker ratio. Couple that with NOS and the power band just got more narrow. Not to mention the 1 7/8 headers are pretty good if it were stricly N/A and a tight convertor.

Thus, rockers and headers are (2) big areas.

I checked through some of my notes and I did a roller camshaft for a 427 SBC with 18x about 1 year ago. Similar in thought to what you have for camshaft. 1.8/1.6 rockers. 14.0:1. Dominator. 2" headers into a 2 1/8. 4" mufflers. At 3200 lbs and a T-400 (1.96/1.34/1.00) it runs 6.00's in a 6.00 break-out N/A class. With no throttle stop and the ballast out (2980) it runs 5.70's on motor. His heads are very good and it is a Wilson Manifold. 29 X 10.5 tires (no "W") on a 12" wheel. According to my notes 1.27-1.28 sixty foots at 2980 lbs.

I think you need to get back to the basics. Have the heads checked out by a neutral third party. Go through the SB. Get some serious E-vac on the engine. Invest in headers, valves, rockers, springs. It is my opinion you should be able to rule that class with the parts you have.

Don't cha just love how I had fun spending your money? LOL

Good Luck.

[Chris Uratchko]

Craig,

Not much going on on my end.... too busy with other peoples stuff lately. Mostly I'm just concentrating on stabilizing my valvetrain... I had a ton of instability in the intake side last year and it was eating up srpings, valve seats, guides, what a mess.... had some serious harmonic/frequency issues in the intakes only. So anyhoot... made a ton of changes in that area, and we'll see what happens. Put some Mickey thompson wheels on the car... looks killer! That about it!!

[craig w.]

Wow, sounds like I'm missing a ton of power if it should run better on the motor than what its been doing on a 175 shot. Looks like I have plenty of stuff to save toward for next winter. Should have asked you this last fall when I had more than two weeks before the first race. LOL

So the cam is OK then if I address the problem areas?

Which would you do first, the rockers, vacuum pump or the headers? The money isn't there right now to do more than one.

Thanks for the input guys. I appreciate you taking the time to help me out.

[craig w.]

Those M/T wheels are killer. I bet the car looks great with them on it. See you at the Bowling Green race?

Doing some more thinking about what Jay was saying and what you mentioned...how hard on stuff is this cam gonig to be, especially if I can go with the 1.8 rockers? I'd really like this thing to run all year without having to rip into it.

[craig w.]

I forgot to ask before...Jay, you mentioned valves. Is this to handle the extra lift of the 1.8 rockers or because what Brodix puts in them is junk?

As for the 3rd party evaluation of the heads, I take it you aren't a fan of Mike Stark's work. He said he could have gotten more out of the heads, but I didn't have the money to go to offset lifters, offset rockers and moving the pushrods. They are dang thin at the pinch point now, so I think he's shooting me straight. Brodix and Brian Tooley at Total Engine Airflow have the same opinion that the pushrods are what limits these heads to mediocre flow.

Thanks.

[spdracr]

If that was what Tooley said then it is probably true. Have had nothing but good things come from his place.

[craig w.]

Too bad Brian moved to Ohio. Used to be just down the road from me about an hour.

[94guy]

jay the 18x heads on the 427 you are speaking of do you know who ported them?

[Jay Allen]

Should have asked you this last fall when I had more than two weeks before the first race. LOL
Now I agree with this 100%.
So the cam is OK then if I address the problem areas?
The cam is more than ok.
Which would you do first, the rockers, vacuum pump or the headers? The money isn't there right now to do more than one.
The Evac pump is easy to do. That should be 20-30 hp right there. 12" of vacuum max. Do a Ford smog pump version and you're in for under 150.00. If it were me, I'd save and do it all at once. Seriously.
Doing some more thinking about what Jay was saying and what you mentioned...how hard on stuff is this cam gonig to be, especially if I can go with the 1.8 rockers? I'd really like this thing to run all year without having to rip into it.
Thinking is an item that you should do BEFORE you spend money. Then when issues such as this come up, you have thought about them before hand! LOL.

I will assure you this is NOT a high RPM engine ecspecially with NOS. A good 1.625 spring with the cam you have will last a long time.
I forgot to ask before...Jay, you mentioned valves. Is this to handle the extra lift of the 1.8 rockers or because what Brodix puts in them is junk?
This is due to the fact you are into an engine that should have titanium valves in it. You need the proper length of valve to accomodate the taller lift and high spring rate you need. Should you compromise, then you had better get a valve spring sponsor!!! It comes back to what I said above about doing it right and buying good springs.
As for the 3rd party evaluation of the heads, I take it you aren't a fan of Mike Stark's work. He said he could have gotten more out of the heads, but I didn't have the money to go to offset lifters, offset rockers and moving the pushrods. They are dang thin at the pinch point now, so I think he's shooting me straight. Brodix and Brian Tooley at Total Engine Airflow have the same opinion that the pushrods are what limits these heads to mediocre flow.
STOP!!! I said ZERO about the head porter or his work. I have no idea who he is. Please do not put words in my mouth. This is how internet $h!t gets started.

I get second and even THIRD opinions when I am doing a project. Taking one person's word on something will lead to problems. On the 427 SBC that I spoke about, those heads were flowed (3) times on (3) benches and we got (3) sets of completely different numbers. One guys uses a tube. Another does not. One uses std SF plates. Another has aftermarket flow fixtures. One corrects numbers. Blah, blah, blah. But it is insight like this that can and typically does give you an edge.

In all of your post I keep hearing a common item:
but I didn't have the money
Craig, you need to realize you are in a sprt that is no longer cubic inches. It is Cubic Dollars. You need to face those facts. I understand that money does not grow on trees. If it did I would live in the forest! If you are truely racing on a shoestring, then you had better be happy with 5.90's on the NOS. Where you are now to the next level is a big move financially. If you are going to committ, then its full steam ahead or you WILL be committed to funny farm.

This is why I try to get guys to think before the fact. Good used valves off of E-bay are cheap and would have been the same or slightly more than the stainless you now have. Springs. The ones you need vs what you have, maybe 100 bucks? Rockers. 1.5 vs 1.6 vs 1.7 vs 1.8 on those heads. Jesel or T&D does change the price depending upon ratio. Headers. 1 7/8 wasn't cheap. How much more for the 2 1/8? If you look at it like this (and I'll guess high) it was maybe 500 bucks more to get where you need to be on the front side. But now, to get it done, it will be thousands.

You asked the questions and I am trying to help, seriously. But if I were you, I'd be happy where I was at and enjoy the car. It'll offer more sanity.

Good Luck.

[craig w.]

Thinking is an item that you should do BEFORE you spend money. Then when issues such as this come up, you have thought about them before hand! LOL.

Thanks for assuming that I didn't think about anything. The cam was a freebie from my friend who thought it would be a good fit and worth trying. I also consulted him on the rockers before I bought them. So its not like I was taking the advice of the local dirt track racer running the bomber class.

STOP!!! I said ZERO about the head porter or his work. I have no idea who he is. Please do not put words in my mouth. This is how internet $h!t gets started.

My intension was not to put words in your mouth but to get clarification on what you said. I just wasn't sure what you were getting at. Now I know. Thanks.

I'm fully aware that cubic dollars is needed to be on the level of the upper eschelon racer. That's why I run smaller heads-up stuff where regular joes can have a chance of competing.

This car wasn't built all in one shot. The headers are left over from a 383 I built 5 years ago and that's when I first bought the heads, intake, valves and lot of other stuff. They were fine for that motor and I wanted to give what I had on-hand a try before dropping dollars on new stuff. I knew there would be things I'd need to change later on.

This is why I try to get guys to think before the fact. Good used valves off of E-bay are cheap and would have been the same or slightly more than the stainless you now have.
The heads came with the valves, so I didn't just now shell out for inferior valves.

Springs. The ones you need vs what you have, maybe 100 bucks? Rockers. 1.5 vs 1.6 vs 1.7 vs 1.8 on those heads. Jesel or T&D does change the price depending upon ratio. Headers. 1 7/8 wasn't cheap. How much more for the 2 1/8? If you look at it like this (and I'll guess high) it was maybe 500 bucks more to get where you need to be on the front side. But now, to get it done, it will be thousands.

The headers were $325 off Ebay 5 years ago. I didn't need 2-1/8" headers then. I use what works until it proves to not work. I don't throw dollars at the car. If testing proves something does not work, I change it.

You asked the questions and I am trying to help, seriously. But if I were you, I'd be happy where I was at and enjoy the car. It'll offer more sanity.

Yes, I asked the questions and I'm not refuting your expertise. I've asked for clarification and further insight to help with the decision making process. I appreciate your input. I really do. You've given me some great insight. But you could try not talking down so much to the peons of the sport. I may be a nobody with a modest racing budget, but I do my best with what I allow myself to spend. I refuse to fund my racing habit on a credit card or short change my wife and son.

Sorry for getting snappy, but I just wan't in the mood for biting my tongue today. My apologies.

[Jay Allen]

Sorry for getting snappy, but I just wan't in the mood for biting my tongue today. My apologies.
There was no reason to do what you did. If you knew it was wrong while you were doing it or even afterwards, that is why we have an EDIT button. I was answering questions. I was trying to keep a lighter side to the conversation by making jokes and such. The ONLY reason I went as far as I did was because it has something to do with Chris.

I wish you luck.

[Jay Allen]

jay the 18x heads on the 427 you are speaking of do you know who ported them?
Yes I do, why?

[94guy]

i have a set i may want ported.

[YDLUZ]

Craig:

You sound like so many of us, trying to go fast with stuff from many years of screwing around having fun. Something does seem to be holding you back and I'm sure the experts have covered it. Just wanted to say good luck and you seem like a hell of a guy.

For reference, my very mild 434, motown block, 10.6:1 untouched AFR 227 heads-not the full cnc ones, mild street roller, unported super victor, 1 3/4 cheap headman headers. It's in a 71 Camaro street car that gets driven a lot - well 11,000 miles so far without doing anything but changing oil and checking lash, 3,400 lbs, 400 trans, foot brake, slapper bars, 3:89 gear. It ran 6.0 before on a 225 shot. Now has went 5.83 @ 118.5 on a bigger hit. I have $6,000 in the entire motor. There is no vacuum pump, no big headers, no wild cam or gears, mild compression. It does launch very hard, 1.30 REAR wheel - yeah, that's about a 1.20 60' time out of a foot braked, small tire slapper bar car doing an 80' wheelie - hee, hee!

I'm wondering how much you are gaining on the nitrous? Have you tuned it to extract all of the possible hp? Also, I really do not care for Cheater Plates or solenoids, you should consider that Big Shot upgrade, it's like $190.00. I'm just having a hard time understanding why you could not run a 5.70 or so with what you have by spending $190.00 and doing a little tuning with a little more spray? Granted, I do not know all of the facts, but something just does not seem to add up.

Regardless, good luck to you!

[Mike Thompson]

I agree with YDLUZ. The cash you will spend on headers/Shaft rockers/pump/and valves will put a serious dent in your bank account! You could just upgrade to the big shot plate and go faster for allot less.

You can spray that motor 300+ hp with help from a digital 7(sounds like you already have one).

Of course you can get all those parts and a big shot plate too!!!

YDLUZ, You still think it did 1.30 on the rears? LOL

[YDLUZ]

I agree with YDLUZ. The cash you will spend on headers/Shaft rockers/pump/and valves will put a serious dent in your bank account! You could just upgrade to the big shot plate and go faster for allot less.

You can spray that motor 300+ hp with help from a digital 7(sounds like you already have one).

Of course you can get all those parts and a big shot plate too!!!

YDLUZ, You still think it did 1.30 on the rears? LOL



http://www.1320video.com/vids/ydluz.wmv - HERE IT IS, I think it's rear wheel, hell, it went 3.71 to the 330' and a 5.83 to the 1/8th even though the mph was way down due to a low bottle or open exhaust - not positive which. I getting feedback, what do ya think? Regardless, it launches pretty good.

[Mike Thompson]

It does launch good. You did carry the wheels farther than 60'. But I still think it tripped the beam with the front wheels because the box is tall. It is normal to see a 1.31 time on a 5.80 pass with a good launch.

Just my opinion. Any way your car is bad ass! The chrome slappers make it stand out,lol.

[Chris Uratchko]

Well, I look at things differently with a nitrous engine.

I'd prefer not to spray the dog snot out of it, and instead make it all it can be on motor.... and use less nitrous to get the same results.

As for the 60'... 1.20 would be a VERY hard leave for a no wheelie bar car, and let alone a stock suspension no wheelie bar car.

I been 1.22 a few times and run 5.61-5.62 in the first half.

Either way, car leaves great.

[craig w.]

Those are some very nice results from your 434. Killer 60s! Saw you in CC too. Congrats on the ink. What does it run on the motor?

I don't have a lot of runs on the setup at all. Just got the motor in the car last June and didn't get to do a lot of testing. So I'm still figuring out what the motor wants. I made a little progress this weekend and got it down to 6.44@107.9 on the motor only. That's launching on the converter at 4500. 4.11 gears and a 'glide. It leaves fairly soft. 60' was only 1.46. Still working on that too. But its setup for the nitrous, so I don't expect it to be that stout without the bottle. Not much stall there for the big cam and not much overall gearing with the 'glide and only 4.11s

I've got a big shot plate and solenoids. Just haven't stepped up the spray that much yet. I hope to get there in a few weeks. Just taking it slow in order to keep out of trouble at this point. This coming weekend I'm going to start out with the same tune-up that ran 5.95 (175 shot) and if it lays down a good number in 1st round of qualifying, I'm going to see what a bigger shot will do. Probably try a 225 shot for 2nd round.

I'm confident I can get a lot more out of what I've got. With past setups, I've typically tuned at least a second out of them without major parts changes. My last 383 started out running 11.90s and I ended up in the 10.40s. Never did go into the engine during that time. Just improved the tune and the rest of the car.

Thanks! I appreciate the input and the well-wishes.

Take care.






Craig:

You sound like so many of us, trying to go fast with stuff from many years of screwing around having fun. Something does seem to be holding you back and I'm sure the experts have covered it. Just wanted to say good luck and you seem like a hell of a guy.

For reference, my very mild 434, motown block, 10.6:1 untouched AFR 227 heads-not the full cnc ones, mild street roller, unported super victor, 1 3/4 cheap headman headers. It's in a 71 Camaro street car that gets driven a lot - well 11,000 miles so far without doing anything but changing oil and checking lash, 3,400 lbs, 400 trans, foot brake, slapper bars, 3:89 gear. It ran 6.0 before on a 225 shot. Now has went 5.83 @ 118.5 on a bigger hit. I have $6,000 in the entire motor. There is no vacuum pump, no big headers, no wild cam or gears, mild compression. It does launch very hard, 1.30 REAR wheel - yeah, that's about a 1.20 60' time out of a foot braked, small tire slapper bar car doing an 80' wheelie - hee, hee!

I'm wondering how much you are gaining on the nitrous? Have you tuned it to extract all of the possible hp? Also, I really do not care for Cheater Plates or solenoids, you should consider that Big Shot upgrade, it's like $190.00. I'm just having a hard time understanding why you could not run a 5.70 or so with what you have by spending $190.00 and doing a little tuning with a little more spray? Granted, I do not know all of the facts, but something just does not seem to add up.

Regardless, good luck to you!

[craig w.]

I agree with YDLUZ. The cash you will spend on headers/Shaft rockers/pump/and valves will put a serious dent in your bank account! You could just upgrade to the big shot plate and go faster for allot less.

You can spray that motor 300+ hp with help from a digital 7(sounds like you already have one).

Of course you can get all those parts and a big shot plate too!!!

YDLUZ, You still think it did 1.30 on the rears? LOL

Yes, I've got a Digital-7 box. Lots to learn there too! LOL.

Hopefully my big shot plate will be on it very soon. If things go well this coming weekend, maybe the next weekend at the race in Louisville.